00:00:00: And there is no way to have a neutral thing.

00:00:02: It doesn't exist!

00:00:03: Everything has history, everything has an imprint you know?

00:00:07: The really amazing part when your able join all those histories and make them do something else bring in style.

00:00:15: So for me the fraughtness that other people I think see as tool To be actually

00:00:22: the beauty of it.

00:00:36: My name is Debra Matussek and today's guest is Simon Denny.

00:00:40: Simon Denney, he is an artist living and working in Berlin

00:00:47: right now.

00:00:48: You just lived and worked here as we spoke!

00:00:51: Yeah

00:00:53: gotta keep the machine fed of

00:00:54: course.

00:00:55: so welcome thank

00:00:56: you.

00:00:59: I want to start a conversation talking about your most recent exhibition called Forces Of The Unknown at the Marriott here in Berlin, which exhibits these kind of pictures that are getting produced right now.

00:01:15: So can you tell us a little bit about that exhibition and what you're showing there?

00:01:18: Yeah it's a bit of an longer story because I picked the site i've picked the topic i pick the timing.

00:01:28: when i make exhibitions i try to make everything as careful as possible.

00:01:34: For me, the joy of doing something like exhibition making is you can make a very specific thing.

00:01:40: You know?

00:01:40: And time place context all that as part control and it often starts.

00:01:45: I start making things Like making these paintings that you're seeing happening in the studio... ...I often start the process of making these things based on an instinct.. ..and based on interest.

00:01:56: That then turns into something much more specific than what goes on.

00:02:00: So that show which happened six months ago.

00:02:02: Prior to that, I was working on the ideas sort of for like a year and a half you know because it's a new body of work.

00:02:09: so also what is special about this piece for me... It's the beginning of conversation.

00:02:14: often i do works in series or waves And that show marked at the begining of publishing material which we have been working with over the previous years what's going on in the world, but I focused a lot of my artworks on cultural footprint.

00:02:34: Of very powerful people that make technology we all have to use actually.

00:02:41: So i've been really interested with computing and contemporary computing products And also how they filter out into the worlds Particularly when they hit political things and aesthetic.

00:02:54: I get really excited, and this has been a sort of mainstay for my own practice quite awhile.

00:03:00: And at the beginning of twenty-twenty three i read a text that set me on this path.

00:03:06: it's a text by guy who is now actually well known but was more like a niche figure.

00:03:12: Mark Andreessen first came to prominence in early nineteen nineties because he basically forced behind the first commercial browser that really scaled.

00:03:28: Netscape,

00:03:29: right?

00:03:29: Exactly, Netscape.

00:03:30: and so after he went on to be a VC later in the kind of history internet by now his company Andres & Horowitz is maybe one of the most influential and powerful companies in the world also because if they're entanglement with the Trump administration.

00:03:47: So it's been very long story for Mark.

00:03:50: people like him I've being interested in for a really long time.

00:03:53: He publishes from time to time and one of the things that he published in two thousand eleven is called software will eat the world.

00:04:00: And there was a very well, they were kind when I think my generation let's say uh...was introduced to Marks thinking people are paying attention to him?

00:04:08: An-and to voices form their context you know Let's Say People That Are In Business but also kind of thought producing influences almost like business intellectual.

00:04:18: so i would say And so I read that and it influenced my work at the time, but then he came out with this other very influential text which he published in twenty-twenty three called The Techno Optimist Manifesto.

00:04:29: Yeah

00:04:29: i read it

00:04:30: right there yeah So the techno was very very influential and it kind of describes a sort of coming together Of state power an embrace of infrastructure State you know state collaboration with private enterprise infrastructure.

00:04:48: but also I think it emphasizes the newness, breaking taboos moving forward at all costs.

00:04:57: It's a very violent text and it also celebrates violence as an idiom which draws back to what really interested me.

00:05:06: some of those first artistic virgins of that kind of conversation which is Italian futurism explicitly references Marinetti Futurist Manifesto from Nineteen Hundred and Nine.

00:05:20: So I was like, oh my God that's you know futurism has been very interesting to me for a longer time as an art person in our fan.

00:05:27: And then somebody who is interested in the history of modernism end off Art & Technology because in a way telling Futurism and Art & technology.

00:05:36: if You're Interested in Art and Technology go back further enough you often find The Futurists thing Interesting Because they were Very Innovative In Terms Of Yeah Like new ideas and new aesthetics, and synthesizing new formats for making art.

00:05:51: But they were also entangled with politics in a way which of course is quite alarming if you're coming from a liberal tradition because there was sort-of... ...coming up alongside the birth of first formations of fascism around Mussolini.

00:06:08: So it's an ambivalent part of art history For people who are fans of modernism And liberalism.

00:06:17: And so for me, it was very interesting that Mark was reaching to this idiom because some of those same forces are being talked about or were talking about already there.

00:06:25: You know Trump hadn't been elected then but you know There were lots of criticism from Liberals and people on the left of emergent things That felt like fascism and stuff Like dad.

00:06:36: and and certainly The language that mark used in that really drew On someone's kind of fervor breaking taboos and kind of going beyond at all cost.

00:06:45: So that started me on a track thinking, okay how can I bring some of that into describing the contemporary world that's emerging?

00:06:52: You know using some of this signal which he is sending... Which i think it was important you know And trying to synthesize that in something that talks about the language now as well as the language art from past that hes gesturing towards.

00:07:08: so thats just beginning Close to the exhibition yet, but I don't know how long or short you want this.

00:07:15: But

00:07:15: no i think it's a story for just interrupting.

00:07:18: I think It's very interesting because from my point of view For two things yeah...i'm

00:07:23: listening.

00:07:23: Yeah

00:07:23: please go ahead.

00:07:29: Someone like Mark Antriesen as he said who previously was rather obscure figure Or

00:07:33: more obscure than is now?

00:07:35: Yeah has become his leading voice of a movement.

00:07:38: almost and I back when the techno optimist manifesto was released in twenty-twenty three, i read it as well.

00:07:43: As sort of like response to that increasing tech criticism in the world right where he was like no actually yeah there's only stand behind tech.

00:07:51: Yeah And its positive impact on The World?

00:07:54: Yeah!

00:07:54: And his...I think He managed to spark aflame Where A lot Of other technologies felt Like Hell.

00:08:00: yeah, let's go.

00:08:03: And I think secondly that someone like him who comes from a purely technological background and probably wasn't much interested in the wider political societal cultural implications of tech mostly as we see trying to invest in future-facing technologies the fact that someone like him mentions The Futurists, an art movement is quite interesting and quite telling of the world we live in right now.

00:08:29: A hundred percent!

00:08:30: So from that initial spark to curiosity through that exhibition one-and-a half years later how did you end up at these paintings?

00:08:39: One of those which are kind produced right here.

00:08:43: Yeah I mean so exactly... Like i felt exactly same as you did And all those things You know To be clear Has a really unique and very compelling voice.

00:08:54: You know, there's the reason why a lot of people follow him right?

00:08:57: I don't always agree with everything that he proclaims but his you know He's affect.

00:09:01: Lee has a real touch to what he says, you know And I think I think their piece it.

00:09:07: You know if I've read criticisms off at since then as well.

00:09:10: But I think for what it is It did a lot, you Know.

00:09:13: and so yeah, I started with that and then I was also looking around me As I always do like no makeup in a vacuum.

00:09:18: I'm really interested.

00:09:19: What other artists are doing.

00:09:20: at the time I was really involved in the NFT world, and the tie got real interested in crypto.

00:09:27: You know?

00:09:28: I loved all of people that met with crypto actually found the NFT scene a very vibrant, experimental, lively scene And it's quite different than some art worlds before then.

00:09:40: In a way it crossed over to where i grew up from Where my art education came out which is liberal arts schools Museum museum art, but it was also really different because a lot of people who weren't in that world were making and publishing.

00:09:57: And there's the whole new economy is actually quite money for period which made energy around you know.

00:10:05: so I'm interested all about what was great then as well.

00:10:08: sort of crossed over with the tech will be interested them as well.

00:10:11: this people from network much more interesting what was happening in FTS.

00:10:14: they work in other types of are involved before.

00:10:16: so i was really amazing to me.

00:10:18: And during that time, after the bubble... I mean these things come in waves and ups and downs.

00:10:27: After its real crest in twenty-twenty one a lot of people dropped off stopped making work In this way.

00:10:34: it got smaller.

00:10:36: But then also they started experimenting with other formats.

00:10:39: So not just publishing digital works.

00:10:40: They went back to earlier forms of digital art making infrastructure, like plotters.

00:10:47: So plotters were used in art-making in the nineteen fifties and nineties sixties And there's a lot really amazing plotter that comes from that period onwards.

00:10:54: But at that time people who got into our art around the NFT Time We're getting back to making objects with these.

00:11:02: so I thought oh thats interesting.

00:11:03: I was following some artists who went through the NFT world into plotting.

00:11:07: Also new companies are making you hardware Like this.

00:11:10: Bantam tech is coming up And you know, the kind of Shin Zenification of hardware was making...

00:11:17: The shin Zenification.

00:11:18: I love that term!

00:11:19: Was kinda

00:11:19: making these things a lot cheaper?

00:11:21: Because old plotters were quite expensive and they still cost some money but nothing like what it was.

00:11:26: Yeah It's just opening up more experimentation across making objects which is great for me because i've been making objects forever.

00:11:34: So then I started to look at them also Some other work being made in that idiom modernist reminiscence to me.

00:11:42: You know, a lot of people who are making plotter based paintings... To me it looked like work from the early twentieth century but was sort made with machines.

00:11:49: and that in a way is inspiring because you look strangely retroal..to me?

00:11:56: And it drew on all these conversations for art history including futurism which I thought was relevant today.

00:12:02: But there wasn't conversation happening around this works generally.

00:12:05: It's something else on expression and feelings, the promises of generative work.

00:12:15: A lot of focus on technical... And so I was like oh great!

00:12:18: I can use this but speak about it in a different way.

00:12:20: I can apply to my conceptual art interests You know?

00:12:25: So just seeing that work is what would be if somebody were make kind of futurist works that spoke to the language or futuristic painting.

00:12:36: That brings with all those associations that come with that, that Mark was drawing on but making work using machines today.

00:12:46: Even just the idea is really interesting.

00:12:49: and then I started to look more aesthetically around what's coming up in the VC world of that text.

00:12:55: so another framework that Andreessen Horowitz took on after the techno-optimist Manifesto was American dynamism.

00:13:05: this wasn't a text It's sort of a way of framing their investing for that period.

00:13:11: And, you know infrastructure space stuff but also like weapons and much more explicit investment in weapons.

00:13:19: I thought oh thats interesting because when i first interacted with people from the community You knew some other people who did Google walk out or whatever.

00:13:27: People really didn't want anything of Silicon Valley and consumer tech to be associated at all With the weapon industry.

00:13:35: obviously Silicon Valley and Computing in general has a relationship to military tech In its origin, but I found it you know being around that world A little bit in the twenty-tens.

00:13:47: It was a big taboo.

00:13:48: Yeah absolutely You know.

00:13:50: so to see them rush back in would be much more affirmative in that space.

00:13:53: And to see companies like Andrew come into existence?

00:13:59: Yeah, very astounded when Andrew came up because they had a real aesthetic.

00:14:02: You know

00:14:03: and the real is the company of Palma lucky right?

00:14:06: The founder of Oculus.

00:14:08: Yes Which was VR headset that was bought by meta exactly then went full-on into defense

00:14:13: tech.

00:14:14: Right yeah.

00:14:15: And I mean you know Palmer was uh, you know this whiz kid who came from kind of modding in gaming and Founded oculus because he'd kind of put together an amazing headset That was better than everybody else's vr basically in his garage, you know.

00:14:30: And then it was quickly acquired by Metta and he had kind of a ceremonial dismissal from Metta because he was very actively supportive of Trump at the time when there were much more marginal in that community.

00:14:45: So... In the wake what else can I do as a founder?

00:14:50: He's really interested in defense tech.

00:14:51: anyway i think at this point It always seemed pretty patriotic.

00:14:57: So he went into a space where she felt there was room to disrupts and then founded Enderall, which started with the VR kind of and drone border control product.

00:15:08: And then when on making all these incredible autonomous weapon systems that we can see coming out today.

00:15:15: but for me it as an artist really interesting not only story also aesthetic they were leading because you know, their designers.

00:15:25: This woman Jen very interesting designer.

00:15:28: she was obviously drawing on propaganda posters from the nineteen forties explicitly but also because it was of that time to me It looked like a lot of second and third wave Italian Futurism which is often focusing on planes or weapon systems.

00:15:43: in way the Second Wave World War II adjacent futurist work was propagandistic included kind celebration of the power of these machines, you know.

00:15:56: So I was like wow there's always going on and so i'm gonna use some those compositions...I am using AI which is also a big part this whole world And it started to be used by artist friends around me.. I did few projects in my NFT times.... I worked with a pre-version mid journey before release because somebody who involved David starting that company And I was really interested in LLNM's and what they were doing also with images, machine learning stuff.

00:16:27: So i kind of started to make outputs that took androle images... ...and other defense tech companies as well.

00:16:34: Also German defense tech company like Helsing which started to become visible at Germany As we live here.

00:16:38: Which Spotify founder Daniel Eck invested into it?

00:16:42: Yeah!

00:16:43: It was the hard investment over the last couple years.

00:16:45: I started to bring those images that they, those companies were producing in and mix them with like you know my kind of favorite Italian futurist.

00:16:54: You know Giacomo Bella very important first wave Italian futurists And Tullio Crally who was yeah much more on the second way of producing this aeroplane what are called Aeropetura Images?

00:17:09: a comfy system and started out putting these in an experiment with these machines.

00:17:16: So just to recap so I can follow, because i love how you unpack the whole context of being on this exhibition.

00:17:23: but the way understood it is that when we start with the techno-optimist manifesto then you further explore.

00:17:32: I remember last year there was one crucial article in the New York Times that I cited a lot which is called Silicon Valley's entering its hot tech era, right?

00:17:40: Which was reported from Silicon Valley.

00:17:42: I think it July twenty-twenty five where The Journalists basically interviewed A LOT of people just normal tech workers at San Francisco.

00:17:50: That confirmed that.

00:17:51: that basically i think what the techno optimist manifesto kicked off Was this mindset Actually, what we've been doing in Silicon Valley since two thousand ten building these consumer apps that have disrupted housing like Airbnb or taxi ride sharing like Uber.

00:18:06: Yeah This is children games right compared to what?

00:18:09: We're now getting into because now the race is up for AI.

00:18:13: yeah for super-intelligence, but also for military.

00:18:17: So this is the vibe shift that

00:18:19: happened!

00:18:19: Yeah exactly and I remember Alex Carp's book The Technological Republic being like really capturing that from me... ...I'd done artwork about Alex' work before because he comes in with a very interesting background where his mother as an artist made beautiful collages That i actually borrowed some years ago.

00:18:39: so yeah there was this massive shift you know.

00:18:42: And then so I started making these paintings, and how am i going to publish this?

00:18:47: Where do I show these?

00:18:48: you know as a say.I love making digital work... ...I loved the internet but really am an exhibition maker.

00:18:53: that's my craft in a way.

00:18:55: So where would I show them You now?

00:18:57: This is why it start looking little bit into history of Berlin where live wanted somehow published here.

00:19:03: They were only futurist exhibitions had happened in Berlin In nineteen twelve.

00:19:08: even there was you know, before the First World War.

00:19:11: There was an Italian futurist exhibition that happened near Potsdamer Klats and then during the second wave of futurists in the nineteen thirties there is also another show of Eropetura's future work which happens around a few streets away from the Bandler Block which is the head of the Ministry of Defence here in Germany still, and it was at that time as well.

00:19:38: So obviously there's this whole Nazi history that goes through building but also amazingly... In that building Staufenberg has coup against Hitler And his office was there.

00:19:50: now It's an amazing museum That sort-of celebrates the possibility of resisting fascist regimes Which a very interesting formation.

00:20:00: And then right next door to that museum and the Ben Le Bloch is this Katari-owned JW Marriott Hotel.

00:20:08: I was like, well... This is a wonderful perfect site!

00:20:12: To bring all of its history together.

00:20:14: I love the interior hotels anyway.

00:20:16: They're very interesting places.

00:20:18: I've often used exhibition spaces which are not traditional for my artworks but kind of bring their site into the exhibition.

00:20:26: so i showed only four or five New paintings and quite a small room like a conference room that overlooked the Bentley block in The JW Merritt hotel, And that's where I got forces beyond there.

00:20:37: not which it Which is a quote from Mark Andreessen.

00:20:40: Okay named after a quote From his text form beautiful

00:20:44: yeah, so can you tell me?

00:20:46: The last step did you mention how you fed an AI with those images?

00:20:51: yes There was a combination of Futurist images one some of your favorite futurists mentioned plus some of those defense tech and the real images from right now.

00:21:02: Exactly, And you told the AI... You prompted the AI to create something out of it?

00:21:06: Yeah so like I mean there's all sorts of things that can do changes over time with AI but people who get really serious in producing images.

00:21:16: for the last couple years The best systems have been these open source Things that take something from stable diffusion Interfaces that look a little bit like analog synthesizers from the nineteen seventies entered your screen, you know You can plug this plug in into it and change that thing.

00:21:34: And often if you're trying to prompt a very specific type of image.

00:21:38: You start with feeding up Start with a model that somebody's already trained of a stable diffusion Sort of like a general all-purpose image making model.

00:21:47: you then add A kind of filter or several filters on top of that.

00:21:51: so you train a smaller one?

00:21:52: That sort you know, refines it to a very specific aesthetic which is what I did with those images.

00:21:58: So i just piled of...you know It's not even that many images You can take like twenty or thirty images and will already refine their aesthetic quite well.

00:22:07: And then also use on top when you prompt for the text say let us say produce an abstract futurist image something like this.

00:22:15: Then you could also use kind of composition guide.

00:22:21: so one image You know produce a futurist image text that looks a bit like the shape of this Image from using This train model.

00:22:31: That is being tweaked and that's basically what I did.

00:22:33: So it's it's the screw for stuff called comfy UI And It's one A lot Of people who are producing very specific image stills use.

00:22:41: you Know so, that's how i Did that?

00:22:47: And then it's a process that turns into something less scientific, little bit more mystical where you kind of look at all these outfits and like oh thats'a good one.

00:23:01: That has the remnants I really liked in there... ...that ones too much or not enough.

00:23:06: Then its sort-of editing & selection process becomes very important.. ..and from here i fed them to machines and that is another layer because of course they are not a printer.

00:23:16: It paints using this machine made for draw with a pen.

00:23:21: And I collaborated with another artist friend of mine who's good with code to produce a kind of program that it would like run.

00:23:28: so didn't just do one continuous movement.

00:23:33: It could go back and forth, dip in brush and dip in the brush you know, mix the colours a bit as it's going so that starts to look quite painterly.

00:23:45: And of course this has an effect on the motif.

00:23:47: I get out of AI too.

00:23:48: It is not just simple translation of file right?

00:23:51: Then there becomes conversation between technology and image.

00:23:56: Yeah!

00:23:57: It gets really interesting

00:24:09: Before we continue because i have some

00:24:11: more questions about AI.

00:24:12: Yes yes Of course

00:24:14: I would like dive into personal history

00:24:17: Because

00:24:20: I think from what i know, you were born in New Zealand.

00:24:23: You moved to Germany in the year of two thousand seven and started putting out your first shows.

00:24:30: I'm specifically interested...I noticed that when we talk about these figures such as Mark Alex Palmer....you mentioned them with their first names!

00:24:41: which reminds me of jazz musicians.

00:24:43: My jazz musician friends, they talk about Miles and John not as Miles Davis or John Coltrane.

00:24:48: it's Miles & John because yeah It kind of like spans a historical arc And I think you're even though They don't know them Of course cuz their long time been dead right?

00:24:57: It speaks off.

00:24:58: we are part that same scene at the same trajectory.

00:25:01: Yeah So do you know him personally?

00:25:03: No i should be clear about this.

00:25:08: Maybe I should use their surnames.

00:25:09: It's just because

00:25:10: you seem very charming!

00:25:11: No,

00:25:11: but i don't want to claim too much right?

00:25:14: So...I really come from this art background and went through the traditional art track And knew nobody in the technology scene when I was younger But I started getting to know other artists who were interested in technology.

00:25:25: Actually Germany is a really interesting place for me To grow that Because early on When I had part of a group of artists That got referred as post internet generation and a lot of my friends were really interested.

00:25:37: And this was, you know we were making basically work responding to social media becoming hegemonic in a way You Know?

00:25:47: Everybody took their own way doing that.

00:25:48: It's little group.

00:25:49: That was yeah A lot In Germany, a lot in Berlin actually Also in the UK.

00:25:55: The states are a bit but a lot is happening here But alot international people Here.

00:26:00: So it was some German People but also alot Of people from other parts of world And we were all kind of like thinking, okay what does it mean to make art now that the internet's changed so much and has become so naturalized?

00:26:10: You know.

00:26:11: Um...and I think as a part of that We started mixing with people in technology.

00:26:17: you know very important thing for me was this event called DLD which happens at Munich like digital art design.

00:26:23: yeah i made an art exhibition about That conference.

00:26:27: actually Which is one my first pieces that I've made Kind of addressing The People who Make the tech right.

00:26:33: So they became fascinating To Me.

00:26:37: There was a very different era of tech.

00:26:39: I mean, yeah... Yeah!

00:26:40: In Berlin too it wasn't in the art world but at DLD and stuff.

00:26:44: It was very much this optimism And let's all copy Silicon Valley.

00:26:48: Let's make it happen.

00:26:49: So many people believed that there is positive impact on

00:26:52: tech.

00:26:52: Twitter was going to free the world This kind of core of global liberalism.

00:26:58: The end of the global end-of-history idea was somehow being delivered by technology, right?

00:27:03: Yeah.

00:27:04: Exactly so.

00:27:04: there's a really interesting story for me coming from art.

00:27:07: I was a bit skeptical of that.

00:27:09: you know i was like okay thats'a big plan is it going to do that?

00:27:13: and a lot of skepticism has been encouraged in art education.

00:27:17: So this context came but also enjoyed meeting people who were believing this even if those products didn't end up doing the things that they claimed they were doing, like I suspected they might not.

00:27:30: The people really thought they would you know?

00:27:33: I think there was a lot of genuine belief in that stuff and it's infectious to be around right.

00:27:37: so i sort-of got seduced little bit by their context y'know.

00:27:40: And I was intrigued by anyway...the gap between what I saw as possibly unrealistic claims being laid but this incredible energy around her Y'know In way an cultural moment unlike something else I'd experienced.

00:27:55: But this is also, then it opened in a way adored to me where I started to meet more people from that world.

00:28:01: And i think when the next wave of technology hit which was for me crypto Which was what got really interested.

00:28:05: so after social media Then the crypto thing became very interesting.

00:28:09: The people involved with crypto were different like, where they were coming from and who they were than that earlier group of founders I met in the DLD world.

00:28:19: You know?

00:28:20: They were scrappier!

00:28:21: From lots different places.

00:28:22: there wasn't one single geographic hub for it.

00:28:24: There was a lot... And actually happened in Berlin.

00:28:27: Like Ethereum which is most interesting crypto product to me always In some ways still is The first meetup happens here in Berlin But it wasn't coming the German technology scene.

00:28:39: It was coming from this weird international group of people that I felt very close to and cultured, you know?

00:28:45: So then yeah... Then i started meeting with them there And it went on anonanone.. ..and I start making work explicitly about these people.

00:28:51: They would be attracted by the fact they made a show in a context where had nothing to do With some people.

00:28:56: For example one other person who is closest To the Marc Andreessen world That first came into contact with Peter Thiel Because he made big exhibition about

00:29:06: his work.

00:29:06: How did he like it?

00:29:08: He was quite into it.

00:29:09: You know, which is funny because he's

00:29:11: famous for...he killed Gawker.

00:29:14: basically they had a story on him being homosexual and you know?

00:29:18: He doesn't like other people talking about him apparently.

00:29:21: Yeah I mean Peter has-I would say like quite hard to classify And his yeah very skillful speaker also as we probably have seen as well.

00:29:33: So ya'know i wasn't sure what I frankly didn't think he would see it.

00:29:37: I made this exhibition about him in New Zealand, you know?

00:29:39: And I made these board games...I used to make much more complex things than paintings.

00:29:43: so i used to like sculptures that had lots of text on them and often use games as a kind of motif.

00:29:51: So hey!

00:29:51: I've made these Board Game Sculptures off the kind-of-to me unpacked like Peter's Philosophical World You Know In A Way As part an Exhibition I Made in Auckland He ended up showing up going into their show and he left to contact detail, then we had a meeting after that.

00:30:07: Did you

00:30:07: come by because he probably has some underground bunker in New Zealand?

00:30:12: That's one of the reasons I made this show.

00:30:13: there is because... He was on The News a lot in New Zealander because he bought property there And it came out as if he were citizen.

00:30:19: So he'd been able become a citizen through an investment programme that New Zealand had at the time.

00:30:25: It was controversial.

00:30:26: You know people from New Zealand have very has a lot of fantasies about egalitarianism, like Scandinavia in the way it does.

00:30:34: Like flat societies and then kind of very elite people buying their way in.

00:30:38: you know press some buttons that people didn't liked to hear.

00:30:41: so he was quite prominent in New Zealand at this time.

00:30:43: This is twenty sixteen seventeen when I made The Show.

00:30:48: So yes He had property there And did come through while visiting one of his properties In the country.

00:30:54: So yeah And they dropped by these small commercial galleries.

00:30:58: you know, since I was twenty and saw this exhibition then yeah as i said left a contact.

00:31:03: And we had the meeting.

00:31:05: where do you think does this fascination come from?

00:31:09: of these tech figures in their power influence?

00:31:13: because Nowadays, many people see that happening.

00:31:17: But you saw it quite early... I think the Peter Thiel one was an earlier one but even earlier he did one on

00:31:24: Kim.com

00:31:25: A German figure living in New Zealand running mega-upload like a huge pirate streaming site in the world and become very rich out of it.

00:31:36: When looking through your history at work i noticed this fascination with these figures which quite early in understanding the cultural, broader culture impact of these people.

00:31:48: Is there a moment in your life where... A hundred percent!

00:31:52: ...the first person that happened?

00:31:54: Yeah so when I went to art school for the first time in Auckland and wasn't interested in those people at all you know very late teens were talking here.

00:32:01: y'know i was eighteen years old when i started art school.

00:32:04: then i was twenty-one when i first graduated.

00:32:05: so it's you've studied quite young.

00:32:08: but then i realized quickly wanted move away.

00:32:12: I loved the art world that was part of New Zealand, but you know...I realized becoming a part of network.

00:32:18: there's more going on in this world and Art is gonna be way for me to see more of it.

00:32:24: so this where i wanted study again looking at opportunity.

00:32:29: then German curator who came from New Zealand suggested I moved to Frankfurt.

00:32:34: he also suggested school, the Stadelschule in Frankfurt which I'd never heard of and all these amazing people that were teaching there.

00:32:40: And I was like oh wow it didn't know about this but then i ended up moving there with his help to you know met some people who were teaching through him uh turned into long-time collaborators friends of mine eventually But...to no any of them at the time!

00:32:54: ...and THAT WAS ACTUALLY THE MOMENT because when I moved from New Zealand To Germany..I sort of went with a suitcase & laptop.

00:33:03: This is my first MacBook, I think.

00:33:05: It went with it at that time was like a G for something and You know suddenly everything I was doing That meant anything to me was happening through this computer.

00:33:17: And you know?

00:33:17: I had computers in my life in the past.

00:33:19: This is two thousand six seven, you know.

00:33:21: but like yeah when I was moving I was like wow this Is like I do everything through this, you Know i find everything.

00:33:26: new places Like chat With my old friends from.

00:33:29: you know Facebook could just started.

00:33:30: then I Was already on Myspace and friends too before.

00:33:33: Then And suddenly I was like, oh my god Google everything.

00:33:37: Everything i've found of finding through a google search all these images were available.

00:33:40: Suddenly that didn't have before when it's only going to libraries?

00:33:44: This is so important.

00:33:46: and because I was interested in objects and Context you know growing up learning about art as well.

00:33:53: what the hell What does this object You Know?

00:33:56: why doesn't look Like this?

00:33:57: who made it.

00:33:58: you know Who made his powerful thing The basic filters everything than I do Because I was like, it's not just an abj- you know.

00:34:06: It is a thing that has made somebody making that.

00:34:10: and because i was interested also in the history of contemporary art And um sort subgenre of conceptual art called institutional critique.

00:34:18: uh That often focused on the kind of powers around the museum Yeah?

00:34:24: Like so if you don't look at the museum You're looking who's funding it.

00:34:29: There were other artists who had worked made work about technology over the years.

00:34:35: I was really obsessed at that time with artists who had worked early on television, taking cable TV moments much more.

00:34:43: in

00:34:43: U.S.,

00:34:44: but also here in Germany a lot of artist works with television stations and produced art for television or broadcasts.

00:34:50: it's fascinated by this context And again there were lots to do.

00:34:56: like what?

00:34:58: This is important.

00:35:02: It's also a framework, it is also world view.

00:35:07: So that was when I started to figure this out and other artists around me were interested in these products but seeing what they could do creatively with them...I thought yeah thats interesting even more as you see.

00:35:17: why are there like this or not like that?

00:35:20: And whose worldview of the scaling anyway!

00:35:24: That's where i got interested.

00:35:26: once we start reading It's like when I talked about going to a DLD before, then it was really compelling.

00:35:34: These people can communicate...I'm not involved in this discourse but the things that they say are cut through!

00:35:42: They know what we're talking about in some profound way.

00:35:46: so while again i might be on the same page as them politically or you came from very traditional social liberal background and lot of these figures started to notice were not of their politics.

00:36:02: I was like, ah okay... I never really thought a lot about Austrian economy you know?

00:36:10: I hadn't though about Friedrich Hayek before and certainly haven't thought about Murray Rothbard.

00:36:16: but this intellectual world started to open up to me And there's alot going on here.

00:36:21: Then every year they got more.

00:36:24: They are more in the papers.

00:36:27: So just watched it scale-up until now.

00:36:30: Do you see that reflected in an interest and understanding of your art as well, where maybe fifteen years ago not so many people could relate to it the same way they do today because its just much more prominent in peoples lives?

00:36:43: My own work!

00:36:44: No no... In impact on technology and the people in power I think... Yeah.... I

00:36:52: don't know..I mean i think technologists have a different societal role now, but I think prominent business figures and you know statesmen.

00:37:00: And whatever there's

00:37:02: always.

00:37:02: yeah

00:37:03: It's just that they're kind of like the money is changed hands You know.

00:37:07: in a way then at their for the kind of power geopolitics means different things to different people.

00:37:11: Now.

00:37:11: so So i think The Role Is There But it's merged with this other Kind Of Thing That Comes More from the technical side?

00:37:17: And A very Particular Kind of Business you Know.

00:37:20: For me it's Always interesting.

00:37:21: While there's all these changes and newness, especially as the culture around technology is obsessed with the new.

00:37:30: There's a lot of continuities from things in the past too... And actually me coming at this art history and being interested how artists have worked I'm always interested to see patterns repeating that part of what revisiting futurism for me is like.

00:37:48: Yes, this is new.

00:37:49: It's a new mix in a way and things happen now that could not have happened at other paradigms.

00:37:55: on the other hand There are so many things we can draw from past to help us see what actually happening because there are echoes of the past all time.

00:38:05: Do you also think your art as sort of documentation for certain

00:38:11: moods?

00:38:13: talking about crypto, which was huge five years ago.

00:38:16: Which isn't huge at all right now depending who you talk to.

00:38:19: Yeah,

00:38:19: all the metrics are huge!

00:38:21: Right?

00:38:21: True it's coming back with.

00:38:23: Bitcoin is down but probably going up again.

00:38:26: But the metaverse for example.

00:38:28: You did work around a metaverse...which yeah three four years ago people were obsessed with it.

00:38:34: Now not so much anymore Who knows maybe its' coming back.

00:38:37: when do see When you look back on your data time Do you feel like it's also important to capture these dynamics that are so

00:38:45: strong

00:38:45: at the time, but then so quickly because of the obsession with newness and hype disappeared?

00:38:50: Nobody thinks about them.

00:38:51: Yeah

00:38:51: yesterdays paper is trash right.

00:38:53: yeah I mean It's in this.

00:38:55: I think there's obsolescence cycle was one Of The first things That really hit me.

00:38:59: making art About technology Right as like okay Like this thing yesterday was the most valuable thing anybody could ever think of and today it's like they just, its just nonsense.

00:39:08: you know I mean art world is a little bit like that too.

00:39:10: show business is a lil' bit like dat right?

00:39:12: Yesterdays Darling as Todays Embarrassment You Know.

00:39:16: but uh so i think this kind of office license cycle things were very visceral for me as well.

00:39:20: I saw people coming in going into my context too.

00:39:23: So It Was And you know also looked back at design from other periods I had thought at some point was cringe and then suddenly, I though it's really interesting again.

00:39:33: So i saw a lot about these obsolescent cycles you know?

00:39:37: And one of my first sculptures that resonated with people just in the end of my school period in Frankfurt is... ...I bought a bunch of screens on eBay You know!

00:39:49: And lined them up like an evolution cycle of thickness of screen.

00:39:55: so started by things where people were just throwing all this massive huge class CRT TVs and then got all the way down to kind of the latest Samsung very slim LED screen, sort-of everything in between.

00:40:08: And it was interesting to see that because for me stood in this crazy cycle of newness and obsolescence you know?

00:40:16: That's true so much throughout this world.

00:40:20: but yeah!

00:40:20: It is like the metaverse.

00:40:21: as a great example.

00:40:22: I made these paintings of metaverse spaces at time when they were Very expensive to buy but a lot of speculation on these NFTs that represented parts of these meta-verses people.

00:40:34: Oh, this is the you know digital.

00:40:37: Yeah whatever assets are in future

00:40:39: right.

00:40:39: and if land yeah Decentral and

00:40:42: yes there's actually number really great ones.

00:40:45: also visually how they were presenting their maps was very very interesting from an aesthetic perspective as well.

00:40:50: It spoke all sort of history of modernism little bit or Whatever.

00:40:53: so I thought though really interesting things to make paintings off and do some kind you know, clever NFT mechanisms online with where I could follow who owned what and all this.

00:41:03: But of course yeah like now they're kind as dead-as it gets these...you know the totally past but again there's kind of dead spaces or empty speculation.

00:41:13: land plots.

00:41:14: to me is a cultural poetic beautiful You are almost more beautiful than they are as speculative hype And I think that's also something that i can see in my interest, and the history of you know movements like pop art.

00:41:30: Things had also looked at them now In this really jarring way.

00:41:34: That then sort of You know looked at Parse immediately as a kind Of mechanism right?

00:41:39: It was almost Like A tool but there is risks with it too.

00:41:43: Some people Think My Art Is Very Ugly.

00:41:45: You Know How Could You Make An Image Of

00:41:53: That?

00:41:54: different techniques and it's all very physical, but I think what i really loved...I think there was an exhibition in twenty-twenty or twenty-one where you acquired scarves out of marked stature at the stage.

00:42:06: You acquire Patagonia vests from Salesforce employees..you made these sleeping bags out of them!

00:42:12: And he acquired even whiteboards form the old Twitter HQ before Elon Musk bought.

00:42:19: So how do these ideas come up?

00:42:21: Do you just scroll nearby and be like, it'd be fun to buy this.

00:42:25: Just some degree I mean in that way actually... You know i guess It relates a little bit To How I was Describing Sight Like making the show now Recently In This Hotel That Has All This Resonant Material In The History Around It.

00:42:41: I also think thats True With Objects Themselves They Kind Of Carry Something of Their History.

00:42:46: Yeah, I often keep an eye on auctions.

00:42:48: I think auctions are anyway very interesting like not only art auctions but also other types of auctions... ...I think what people will pay for X or Y thing?

00:42:57: What things are considered to be culturally important and therefore command a high price in the market context...?

00:43:04: All these interplayers are very interesting anyways.

00:43:06: so i am constantly scrolling things through Kleinenseigen and eBay, these kind of small markets but also big deal.

00:43:15: I mean the Thatcher estate auction was one of the premium auction houses Christy's you know.

00:43:21: so i keep an eye on both because it is really interesting what happens whenever get interested in something else or a person company often check all option worlds Speak to me of more than what it is that will transcend What It Is.

00:43:36: and the Thatcher scarves I just bought on a whim because i was like wow, you know Thatcher's A very big figure coming from New Zealand.

00:43:42: You Know Anything British?

00:43:44: um.

00:43:45: You know new zealand colonial history.

00:43:47: We're intertwined Especially Coming From a Settler Contexts.

00:43:51: you look a lot To The History Of Britain And um and Thatcher Was This yeah this kind of image of conservatism that was resonant as When I was Child and then to see her silk scarves.

00:44:03: And some of them very poetic, you

00:44:05: know?

00:44:05: Very intimate that they were actually like still make-up stains on some of the for example... You really have a trace off this figure.

00:44:13: but also it's the motif.

00:44:14: there was one accidentally revealing things like One scarf had lipid print all over just in Africa speaking to this colonial history You know, another one she had was a Forbes-themed scarf.

00:44:32: Did that really have a Forbes?

00:44:34: Yes it did and didn't say Capitalist Tool all over it!

00:44:39: All of these things... So when I got there is then sitting in my studio for awhile thinking maybe could just exhibit this as scarves you know.

00:44:47: but then i was looking at other clothing kind of iconic like Thatcher and Scarves or something like that.

00:44:54: She often wore kind of what they call pussy willow blouses that had a ruffle like a scarf.

00:45:02: So it was part of her material iconography in the way, and I thought well what are contemporary versions to this community?

00:45:10: And of course it's Patagonia!

00:45:12: Every time you go on one event everybody would be in these Patagonian vests which I

00:45:16: also think were cool.

00:45:18: The Patagonial Power Puff.

00:45:19: Exactly the power vests exactly.

00:45:22: there is great Times articles about it stuff.

00:45:25: But it was really true, became a kind of standard piece of dress like a suit almost.

00:45:29: And also the aspirations for these outdoor brands were very interesting you know?

00:45:33: Like Patagonia is this deliciously ethical company right.

00:45:37: so there's a lot of claims around that brand being brilliant.

00:45:40: but then again in the title itself It's A Californian Guy who just thought a region and South America would be great.

00:45:47: There are lots of interesting contradictions even from the formation And I was like, oh yeah wow what if you put a puffer vest beside made out of Thatcher's scarves?

00:45:59: What does that mean?

00:46:00: and putting it next to a sleeping bag standing up almost like a sarcophagus.

00:46:07: Because lot the promotional images of those Patagonia models were weirdly puffed-out standing up.

00:46:18: That'd be great to see.

00:46:20: It would've been kind of creepy, you know?

00:46:22: And like sleeping bags all around San Francisco worn by a very opposite end of the scale... ...of wealth You know.

00:46:29: So I was like there's a lot in here and just need this.

00:46:33: so then i made those.

00:46:33: Then working with a gallery at that time we were able even show them works In San Francisco.

00:46:39: To me it is again really powerful bringing together context.

00:46:42: Yeah!

00:46:43: I love how you consider elements that come together have full control over it, of the context as you say.

00:46:50: Yeah

00:46:51: that's a fun part I mean.

00:46:52: but then again is also just because something has great story behind or a great idea behind It Or A set of relevant footnotes That come to something in an essayistic manner doesn't means makes a great artwork too.

00:47:06: So there are lots what will feel like stand infront Of this thing.

00:47:12: Same with paintings right?

00:47:14: Its'a great idea but they've also got to look like paintings where you can look at them as paintings and be, there's something there.

00:47:21: Something unmoved by this in another way... Yes!

00:47:23: There are all these footnotes on the reasons why it exists makes even more powerful when we think about that anyway.

00:47:28: But you have to walk into a room and kind of hit by.

00:47:30: what is this?

00:47:44: I want to come back to AI now which was touched upon in the beginning.

00:47:48: Now we could use for the end.

00:47:50: I feel like AI interesting for many reason.

00:47:54: I know that...I reached out to you specifically because i read this article in November, twenty-twenty five called What is Post AI Art?

00:48:01: Yeah.

00:48:02: Which was an article in art review where you Matt Trihurst John Raffman and every singer four artists who all work with AI on some extent got together In a conversation.

00:48:13: it was then edited by the AI or something like That!

00:48:16: But yeah..i thought there were quite interesting takes on that i would love to discuss.

00:48:22: First of All There is as you said a lot of people.

00:48:27: there's this polarized discussion about AI.

00:48:29: Yeah, some people think it's the greatest thing in the world.

00:48:31: It's gonna change everything.

00:48:32: Some people especially from their more leftist artist circles are like This is the end of the world right?

00:48:38: You should not use it.

00:48:40: yes So ethics is a big part of its As well as the argument.

00:48:46: Is it just a tool

00:48:47: right

00:48:48: or was it more than at all right?

00:48:50: what your take?

00:48:50: Well I mean like I said about my laptop that I brought with me to Frankfurt when I moved from New Zealand, it's a tool but is not just at all.

00:48:59: It never is right?

00:49:00: So technologies are made by people and with them comes assumptions in context of these things.

00:49:05: so you know... When you get a tool its also like Margaret Thatcher scarf.

00:49:13: Its an imprint on the situation space attitude.

00:49:19: But that doesn't mean it's only that.

00:49:22: It can only reproduce what was created by and for, you know?

00:49:27: There are many things to take which have been made.

00:49:30: one reason then used another.

00:49:31: That is also my own work.

00:49:33: The person making the scarf or the Patagonia pattern didn't intend me producing those sculptures with them but I could use this to my liking in a way.

00:49:43: So AI is like that and related everything else To me, actually I was a bit hesitant to have conversations about art and AI when it first started.

00:49:53: When these image models started to get discussed in this way because... ...I found really hard to insert myself into the way that I found interesting and productive Because for me well its just Photoshop.

00:50:05: People didn't like Photoshop before they used it.

00:50:07: So it seemed boring at first But now i realise there's alot more talk about And coming across how people like John People like Matt and Holly, you know people Avery have used these things as artists.

00:50:21: It's also inspired me And so it kind of shown me there are ways to use it that Also expand the vocabulary.

00:50:28: what is available for me?

00:50:30: Again its about how You take into account What your doing When I'm producing These kinds of motifs That i use For my paintings.

00:50:39: Im not assuming The tool Is apolitical Without context devoid of ethical, you know these things are in it and that's why I want to use.

00:50:50: You know for me That's a plus not uh Not a minus.

00:50:53: but i think thats the history Of art that was taught And there is no way To have a neutral thing.

00:50:58: It doesn't exist.

00:51:00: everything has A history Everything Has an imprint you Know?

00:51:04: The really amazing part Is when your able Join all those histories Make them do something else Bring into dialogue.

00:51:12: so For Me the fraughtness in a way that other people, I think see and the tool to me is actually the beauty of it.

00:51:21: And you know i guess like...I'm quite sympathetic as well to arguments around moving with the contemporary world Like we talked about earlier.

00:51:30: Aswell You Know?

00:51:32: I try make each exhibition an artwork which would produce kind of relic moment That could only be made then With new affordances at this time Some good, some bad.

00:51:45: And I think that yeah to ignore something as impactful as AI in the context of it would be ridiculous you know?

00:51:54: It doesn't make any sense.

00:51:55: and The fact that its involved with visual things... ...the fact that AI slop is so-called AI slop.

00:52:03: This aesthetic which was very interesting Is kind like taking over all our feeds the fact that anybody can grab a tool like Zora or whatever and kind of make a little clip.

00:52:12: And it sort-of has a surrealistic feeling to it, but also we're kinda glossy advertising feel into all these aesthetics coming together because they are popular Because this market wants... This is what's about!

00:52:25: So then more this happens Then you get excited

00:52:27: for me.

00:52:29: But I also understand people whose labor is being devalued, right?

00:52:34: I mean this where the real tough ethical... Well there's a couple strains of the ethical thing but from an artist-maker perspective what people get really upset about it.

00:52:43: The idea that their labour had market value before suddenly because these machines come along has no market value.

00:52:49: essentially all with skills they've worked on and reputational values goes to zero in face when you can just pump out images as good enough And I'm sympathetic to those individual cases, but on the other hand this is history of any labor context.

00:53:12: There's never an evergreen money button.

00:53:16: you have to learn and grow!

00:53:19: So yeah...and i am very sympathetic also for arguments from business people who like say things well all they do are retrain.

00:53:29: if you stopped Mark Andreessen classic, his stuck record take on this is like well you know would tell the person with fire to go put it back?

00:53:38: You know that we don't want actually cook or what.

00:53:41: He has a point as things change he can do different things.

00:53:46: so if someone comes some random kid who loves your work feeds all of your work in between an eye and creates their own You'd be like, go ahead.

00:53:57: That's amazing right?

00:53:58: I

00:53:58: mean in fact you know fan fiction that sort of what they kind then reads into is power.

00:54:05: In a way it just enforces your brand.

00:54:07: also when there was this Ghibli studio moment

00:54:10: Right.

00:54:10: So yeah its great.

00:54:11: to the example.

00:54:12: Yeah

00:54:12: i was like

00:54:13: great

00:54:14: Amazing Like on level cultural legibility To reach that many people want to render their images Just in style.

00:54:23: Ya know thats a triumph You know, it's not a moment of failure.

00:54:28: It's a moment from potency you know?

00:54:32: But the thing is with my work as you pointed out earlier... ...it's actually kind-of hard to do that because my workers use this style but isn't our style right?

00:54:42: so I think some other language that you can poke at and play around within even more sophisticated tools would be quite hard i think for producer convincing Simon didn't fake actually.

00:54:57: Yeah, and I'd love it if a could.

00:54:59: It's not that I think all great.

00:55:00: I'm resistant.

00:55:01: So therefore I can't be made obsolescent.

00:55:03: I would love to be proved wrong You know but I think it's just I changed styles as Often is the model does you know?

00:55:14: so which i think Is also really interesting right like yeah.

00:55:18: And why do you think?

00:55:19: I think you mentioned in that article said something Like you find it Interesting That.

00:55:24: But is it just a tool discussion?

00:55:26: Yeah, that A lot more people than before feel threatened by AI in an unprecedented way and that In itself is interesting.

00:55:34: Yes yeah It's a cultural

00:55:36: expression And instead use my interpretation of that would be that I feel like Over the last few years or ten years also More people have become critical off-tech.

00:55:47: Yeah Ai Is now justice emblematic thing that people hate on because It expresses everything people started to hate about tech.

00:55:55: That's why they hate AI, and maybe you can't see the positive things of it?

00:56:01: Yeah!

00:56:02: So

00:56:02: this is a different kind of ethical track than all my work as my labor has been made on solicitor right... I think that comes down ultimately like consolidation power.

00:56:13: You know And i think This something even in business have been hesitant critical off Right from start.

00:56:21: Actually on in my meeting that I had with Peter.

00:56:24: Yeah, all those years ago You know he had just you know produced a quip.

00:56:30: then He liked to roll out during various different talks that he was doing at the time which was like blockchain is Blockchain as capitalists and as communists.

00:56:41: And what he meant by that?

00:56:43: Was that it was Centralizing right that all the power was in the center and he talked about.

00:56:47: they were like there's only a handful of companies that can do this, and they have all the data from the internet.

00:56:53: They're like...they've got all their processing power!

00:56:55: There is big barrier to entry even playing in this game etc.

00:56:58: So people I think rightly you know ensure the fact being in charge.

00:57:06: these systems are very.

00:57:08: it brings a lot to the central actor.

00:57:11: Wait wait but just get the quote right.

00:57:14: He said blockchain is capitalist?

00:57:16: Yeah

00:57:17: and AI is communist?

00:57:19: Because I would argue it's the opposite.

00:57:22: Well,

00:57:23: what he was drawing on if you can classify a market as capitalist as decentralized... And you could classify communism as centralized.

00:57:33: So centralized economies versus decentralized economies.

00:57:37: Okay

00:57:37: in that sense!

00:57:38: This

00:57:38: kind of funny bit of

00:57:39: it?!

00:57:40: He totally got me.

00:57:41: apparently It's quite funny!

00:57:45: So it's centralized versus decentralized, right?

00:57:47: That that is the kind of paradigm he was brushing over.

00:57:51: But its also true from history technology you know.

00:57:54: they are like communist systems were working on.

00:57:57: things feel a lot like planned markets and I mean there all these very interesting discussions around stuff like Is Amazon actually realisation of communism?

00:58:06: because basically price setting mechanism There is alot work talking about this now.

00:58:11: And this convergence that maybe China represents as well, right?

00:58:15: Convergence of the power of central planning and the power markets kind of coming together.

00:58:21: And yeah I think that is really legitimately scary from a political perspective.

00:58:26: if you're not one these people in the middle You are at a massive disadvantage!

00:58:31: Not everybody can be that central actor.

00:58:34: So i think some of their fear very understandable Echoed by the people building it.

00:58:42: Yeah, that's.

00:58:43: but I mean i think like The way?

00:58:45: I understand your opinion is you're not an economist You are NOT a politician artist.

00:58:51: yeah.

00:58:51: so from an artist point of view It's very interesting what they right now.

00:58:55: it's very

00:58:55: good culturally its very compelling and you know.

00:58:57: But yeah, I mean isn't.

00:58:58: is it good or bad for the world?

00:59:00: You know That's that the jury is out Right.

00:59:02: it's uh...I can see advantages And I could see disadvantages.

00:59:06: But that's just me as a private citizen, like my political instincts and my own personal beliefs.

00:59:11: How I vote whatever you know?

00:59:12: That in some ways to me distinct from how I act is an artist.

00:59:18: You know it's...I know of course am an actor on the political network And what i do has impact to certain extent.

00:59:24: but see as reflected My role is consolidate and present To kind package moment and compelling tensions be they Scary or inspiring, you know and that's what I think great art can do.

00:59:41: right if You're asking out to do more than that.

00:59:43: It's a big ask.

00:59:44: You know i'm not saying it can't.

00:59:46: there's lots of great activist art in the world And some of which are my big fan off.

00:59:51: But I think if an artwork captures the feeling of a moment?

00:59:55: And it does it in a way that really Communicates to you on a visceral level like What is what it feels like to be now That's a big, that is great thing.

01:00:07: Beautiful!

01:00:08: I think it was the perfect way to end this conversation.

01:00:12: Thank you

01:00:13: so much!