00:00:00: I've been always thinking about quantum physics is essentially unknowable.

00:00:04: There's models, mathematical models

00:00:07: that

00:00:07: approach the unknown but what it really... What is happening?

00:00:11: We haven't got access to them for real or I call it the unreal.

00:00:15: we don't know.

00:00:26: Welcome to The Culture and Technology Podcast brought you by the Vienna Business Agency.

00:00:31: My name is Severin Matuserk.

00:00:35: Libby is an artist and scientist using quantum physics as a notistic medium.

00:00:40: Welcome to the podcast!

00:00:41: Hi

00:00:44: So I want to start with A post that recently saw from you on your Instagram where You mentioned it is a common misconception about you, That you make art About science.

00:00:57: Can you expand on that?

00:00:58: Yeah this was really good place To Start.

00:01:00: Thank-you for bringing me up Because...I'm using.

00:01:06: I'll unpack what this is or we can unpack it together, but i'm using quantum materiality.

00:01:12: so as a medium.

00:01:16: So you know like how Monet or Cezanne they weren't making paintings about paint.

00:01:22: They were looking at the world and expressing different things, but they use paint as their medium.

00:01:28: I'm using quantum particles.

00:01:29: that's my medium.

00:01:31: But i'm looking out other thing.

00:01:33: so my works are psychological dealing with emotion Dealing what it means to be human in a like degraded environment or trying to think of different work here.

00:01:46: So some older ones are a bit more about quantum physics or quantum technologies, but still open out into much wider discussion.

00:01:53: But mostly my most recent works deal with psychology and the environment I would say?

00:01:59: I read in an interview you expressed it as using quantum as a prism... As a portal almost to explore different realities, different ways of thinking.

00:02:14: I mean, maybe to start with we have to get into what is quantum anyway and then take it from there.

00:02:20: What's

00:02:20: a prism?

00:02:20: Yeah so yeah just go back... So use as medium under lens through which to reimagine the world since like metaphor and medium.

00:02:28: but you know what is Quantum?

00:02:30: What do you think Quantum is?

00:02:32: That's great question!

00:02:32: So i did my research.

00:02:35: of course Amateur words is.

00:02:40: it's a scientific theory that I think according as you mentioned in one interview has not really been falsified so far.

00:02:47: So, it's one of the most solid theories we have about the world and quantum Is currently very hyped up field.

00:02:54: In terms of computing where there are Existing quantum Very basic computers?

00:03:01: I think by IBM then you can access via the cloud.

00:03:04: but when comes to quantum computing The promise is that quantum computing basically intensifies the computing power of the binary computer by a trillion times or something like, and goes beyond the binary distinction.

00:03:20: Of the way computing has been structured over the last hundred years.

00:03:25: so it promises many advantages But it's not there yet, the future.

00:03:31: So major tech companies and major governments are working on this because obviously once its' their is gonna open up many new opportunities.

00:03:42: but I think i understand your work.

00:03:43: as you know coming from scientific background or someone who has worked in that as a scientist for more than ten years You use science and theory to express other things through art.

00:03:58: Can you falsify or verify my theory?

00:04:01: I think it's really interesting to ask because anyone listening, watching this will have a hopefully interest in it.

00:04:11: But maybe understanding that they might be... A lot of what i'm trying is when people come up and start by going ''I don't know much about quantum''.

00:04:23: People do know a bit about it so its always interesting where people are at and what they're thinking.

00:04:29: So thank you for

00:04:30: sharing that!

00:04:31: How would you expand on my definition?

00:04:33: Well,

00:04:34: yeah I mean it is a theory of reality...a physical theory but has never been falsified.

00:04:39: so its super solid in terms of the models we have of reality appear to be true as far as..we can say true there's never been no way Yeah, falsifying them.

00:04:52: But what those models describe we didn't really touch on you Didn't bring up and this is why I'm particularly interested in.

00:05:00: So quantum physics describes the microscopic world atoms and photons And some molecules subatomic particles.

00:05:09: under certain conditions so not always at that level.

00:05:14: Particularly when things get very cold like the coldest temperatures in the universe minus two hundred and seventy-three degrees, things get very weird.

00:05:23: Very counterintuitive.

00:05:25: so quantum physics describes that weirdness.

00:05:27: you know in just over a hundred years ago scientists thought they'd solved reality.

00:05:32: They could predict everything using Newtonian physics which is the physics of macroscopic world And then we started to notice anomalies and things weren't quite right at that microscopic level.

00:05:43: That led for development or quantum.

00:05:44: So I suppose How is it weird?

00:05:48: Is another question.

00:05:50: What do you have anything to say before I go and talk all day on these

00:05:55: things, too?

00:05:56: I'm curious about how you translate something that's happening in extremely complicated physical science rooms when it comes to microscopic elements that you described... ...how does that translate into visual representation or art making?

00:06:14: Yes, so I use actually IBM about two months ago have just changed all their permissions on my quantum computers.

00:06:20: So you can't Use them anymore.

00:06:23: but The point is that the quantum computers are like a portal or way of accessing these Atoms and molecules that are doing strange things?

00:06:35: So at the quantum level the quantum levels non-binary That means The particles can be doing two contradictory things at once.

00:06:44: So they could, if I were quantum... ...I would be here and in Vienna at the same time.

00:06:49: but you don't see that in this macroscopic world do?

00:06:53: You're there and i'm not somewhere else.

00:06:57: so I sort of use technology as a portal to bring these effects Traces of these effects, because you can never really see them directly.

00:07:07: They exist in much higher dimensional spaces which is quite magical and cool to think about high dimensions.

00:07:14: I use traces via the quantum computing and video work In game engine situations games or immersive environments AR virtual reality.

00:07:27: There's always this digital interface that takes the traces of a quantum world with multi-dimensional non-binary, maybe you could call it queer.

00:07:38: With different temporalities and bring some interest work.

00:07:41: I've been working to develop new aesthetic based on these things.

00:07:46: So... To explain the concept of binary in layman terms The way we perceive reality mostly is Something is true or something.

00:07:57: Is not true?

00:07:58: let's say and I think you gave also the example of The famous example of Schrodinger's

00:08:02: cat

00:08:03: there's a cat in a box You don't know if it's dead, or no.

00:08:06: at that moment when you open the box It's either alive with dad.

00:08:09: but one of those two things When you apply quantum theory to Dads?

00:08:14: They can be both are life-and-dead At the same time.

00:08:19: That's a complicated concept understand for most people because we The way we perceive the world is either this or that.

00:08:27: How do you deal with that complexity?

00:08:29: I love it!

00:08:31: I'm happy to sit in a no-ability of all, like said at start quantum theory has been tested for experiments over the last hundred years and never been falsified.

00:08:43: so cats are macroscopic.

00:08:46: probably they don't exist what's known as superposition But things at the microscopic level do this and actually you can create.

00:08:55: what I've been working with is like not just two possibilities but whole stacks of possibilities existing.

00:09:01: on the same with the same material in the same location at the same time.

00:09:06: Does that make sense?

00:09:07: Yeah, so it'd be like if I'm here there they're all at once but its just one of me.

00:09:12: It's not copies and that gets translated into a layer blurry shapeshifting aesthetic in my video works.

00:09:21: yeah

00:09:22: I want to go into a specific work you've worked on.

00:09:25: Let's

00:09:25: make

00:09:26: it tangible!

00:09:28: The first one i wanted to discuss is... A work from two thousand twenty-four, called Heartbreak and Magic.

00:09:34: If its okay because might be your most personal or one of the more personal works Maybe tell us about that in the first place.

00:09:42: then we continue

00:09:44: It.

00:09:44: really interesting work.

00:09:45: as it's virtual reality What I've been really reflecting on recently is how you read to experience it.

00:09:52: You really need to be in the VR, a walk through on my screen never does... Never captures it.

00:09:57: but shall i tell you the story of how it

00:10:00: was

00:10:01: made?

00:10:01: So Vive Arts HTC Vive Arts approached me make a VR work and I thought i was going to make a work on sort of entanglements, nature etc.

00:10:12: which is really important.

00:10:14: but I wanted to approach it through my body first then do that with alot of my practice.

00:10:19: It comes from within rather than the head which has every western scientific way of thinking whereas this is non-intuitive.

00:10:26: so as working in movement practitioner Naomi Anant Working with a phenomenon called interoception, sensing of your internal world.

00:10:35: So it was like... It wasn't yoga but working with pressure and movement and breath within the body in very slow way bringing imagination inside.

00:10:46: Afterwards I would go home to make all these drawings or paintings automatically.

00:10:57: What came out is that we were holding a lot of grief in my belly because my sister died by suicide which is obviously absolutely horrific and when she passed.

00:11:19: I'm not religious.

00:11:20: so When you're struggling with grief, I mean.

00:11:24: I'm still struggling with it to some extent now.

00:11:25: But when you really in the midst of after what happens?

00:11:29: You're trying to find some your time to answer these unknowable questions like how Like where could she be?

00:11:36: not well first of all why did she do about all of this sort more practical questions?

00:11:40: but Now she's dead.

00:11:42: Could She exist somewhere?

00:11:44: There was these coincidences Where she might visit me as a butterfly or in my sleep grab me and I'd wake up, oh my god!

00:11:52: My sister was just there.

00:11:54: What is that?

00:11:55: Is it just my brain searching or something more?

00:11:58: So in those crazy horrible days... ...I turned into quantum physics as almost like a religion because of the mathematics but I used it when i was a scientist, really does predict save a multiverse which is like all the different parallel worlds existing at the same time.

00:12:17: So sometimes I'd imagine us still exist in being somewhere and in a different realm.

00:12:25: obviously my scientific brain is no that's not true.

00:12:27: then my spirit or heart is like yeah so the work survive.

00:12:33: arts were amazing because they let me kind of take them on this journey from what I proposed into like a work about grief and magic, and hope.

00:12:42: And then i used quantum computing to animate lots of elements in the virtual world.

00:12:48: so it's a virtual reality work that takes you through these themes but is very abstracted.

00:12:55: its very visceral which means by saying you need be IN THE WORK TO REALLY FEEL IT because to see When you're at a distance from it, You don't get the same response.

00:13:05: But when it was exhibited people... Not everyone but certain People would come out crying or really like.

00:13:11: It moved some people.

00:13:13: Some said that they helped them to see into themselves Or imagine other possibilities.

00:13:17: So its quite transformational in that way.

00:13:20: I think

00:13:21: It also spoke to me because i know you and your work for awhile.

00:13:27: And just by perceiving art and quantum, you think in this scientific context at first.

00:13:34: You don't think about emotions or feelings in that context.

00:13:38: so I liked when i discovered that work...I liked how you also framed the concept of quantum feeling.

00:13:45: yeah what that is because that's so opposed to like the rational idea of you know physics scientists it's and so

00:13:53: on.

00:13:54: but i find it quite fascinating.

00:13:58: quantum feeling and just like I've always thinking about the Quantum physics is essentially unknowable.

00:14:04: There's models, mathematical models that approach the unknown but what it really... What is happening?

00:14:11: We haven't got access to the real or i call it the unreal.

00:14:15: we don't know.

00:14:16: so how much can we imagine especially not to gatekeep.

00:14:20: But if you have been trained in mathematics using this language that represents a binary world Like this macroscopic world.

00:14:27: And then, so I really think quantum feeling and sitting with the contradictory elements of quantum and the multiplicities in the paradox helps us to experience some magic and potential over it in different ways.

00:14:43: Also we as a feeling being you know i'm quite an emotional person very sensitive If I sit with myself and focus, i can really feel different emotions simultaneously like sadness and happiness and joy.

00:15:00: And they can all exist at once.

00:15:02: so it's kind of about experience on ourselves in a deeper complexity as well rather than flattening ourselves to these robots on phones... ...and that type of thing?

00:15:13: I would also interpret it that way.

00:15:15: In my understanding the Newtonian Way Of Looking At The World rational dualist way, of course has many advantages and explains a lot of phenomena in an very rational way.

00:15:29: But often when we feel other things that we can't explain through that feelings Observations then you can only explain with words like magic or things are spiritual I think as esoteric.

00:15:43: these fields i think emerged because We couldn't explain the things in any other way.

00:15:48: so what do you say?

00:15:49: That with quantum that quantum is a way of understanding the world, that incorporates maybe spiritual elements or magical elements as classical theories don't.

00:16:01: Yeah, but classical theories definitely don't!

00:16:05: So when I was a scientist we used to get so... Scientists are quite protective about what isn't- What's sort of tested and known?

00:16:14: And what kind of woo-woo Hypothesis a grounded hypothesis survey sort of cat I love to categorize and I experienced that myself because I was like that.

00:16:25: now It's not just say what happens.

00:16:28: on YouTube in particular is People say, you know there's a lot of like hippie spiritual people who say quantum Is everywhere?

00:16:35: And that means we can manifest and if we think hard enough we can Manifest a perfect guy or dream house, whatever.

00:16:43: I don't believe it's that either but what It teaches you?

00:16:46: i'm somewhere in the middle between these two points and its hate.

00:16:49: a blurry Middle A multi-dimensional middle is.

00:16:53: there's a lot of things we don't understand to know about reality and the universe And ourselves and consciousness and To close things down because they cannot be Or say it's impossible because They can't Be measured using a western reductive a scientific method.

00:17:11: You know, I think that's stupid.

00:17:14: so it's not like you necessarily need to invoke quantum to explain certain things.

00:17:21: but there is a lot we don't know and i think sitting in no ability or the unknown Is really productive.

00:17:30: So maybe one...I always think when quantum technologies are further developed Maybe will have a quantum computer vision where we start to look at the world with genuine quantum eyes, so they are non-local meaning things can affect each other non causally across space and time And With a plural lens Non binary lens.

00:17:52: Maybe you will start to see Things that we could never imagine like a Pernicus Revolution but in different way.

00:18:01: do We need quantum computing for that?

00:18:04: Yes

00:18:08: I would say we need quantum technologies.

00:18:11: Quantum computing is what everyone focuses on, but there's like a whole zoo of other technologies that are based in the quantum materiality.

00:18:34: go to the next piece of work.

00:18:37: Well, I think there is an interesting connection because it's Shadowscapes which was just very recent in London at Allianz.

00:18:45: It still on yeah and you know checking out...I think there's a lot say about that exhibition but i think what for me where the connection between heartbreak magic and shadowscapes Is That?

00:18:57: I read this text that he wrote I think on a website connected to it, which was about your sister but also about you upbringing and family.

00:19:07: And again i felt like wow is this such an interesting... Such a wide scope of looking at your art practice between your personal story and the quantum side.

00:19:20: so maybe you can expand on that?

00:19:23: Yeah!

00:19:24: So Shadowscapes Shall I say something about the exhibition.

00:19:30: first and what works?

00:19:31: Yeah, yeah please.

00:19:32: Yes!

00:19:33: And then we can talk about it... There's so much in there.

00:19:37: So this is an exhibition at Orleans House Gallery.

00:19:39: It's until First of March.

00:19:41: Please go if you're in London.

00:19:42: West London Very beautiful there by The River In west London As approached over a year ago because they wanted contemporary artists working with technology to work with some Turner paintings, you know the famous British painter?

00:20:00: Yeah.

00:20:00: Turner

00:20:00: Prize.

00:20:01: Turner prize

00:20:02: yeah!

00:20:02: Turner paintings yes Yes.

00:20:05: so I chose three Turner paintings from The Tate first of all and we loaned those there in the show.

00:20:12: they're lesser known ones.

00:20:13: And i asked...I was working on one of The Tait curators Nick Hull quite closely and I chose paintings that resonated with me emotionally that had light and dark, but spoke to kind of psychology.

00:20:26: But also have the human figure blended with nature or technology in them.

00:20:31: And a concept I was working through Was Young's Concept Of Shadow?

00:20:36: So most people know what this is The parts of ourselves we deem unacceptable, so therefore subconsciously or all of its subconscious we suppress it and everyone's got a shadow side.

00:20:54: So if you think they don't that means.

00:20:56: You're probably suppressing yours even more.

00:20:58: And what young talks about?

00:21:00: Or people like some tiktok as well these days is That you can do shadow work to integrate your shadow etc.

00:21:06: But because I had like a tricky upbringing and have had to do a lot working therapy over many years decades I think i know a bit about my own shadow and... ...I'm interested in exploring it even more, which I did through the process of working with paternas.

00:21:23: And for different methods using them as like almost like portals and imagery to sort-of conjure up darkness and darken light within me In different ways.

00:21:33: but also shadow is important because As we're seeing in The World at the moment there's a lot of polarization right?

00:21:40: Right versus left humans above nature.

00:21:45: When we don't integrate our shadow, We can project it onto others.

00:21:48: other people Other groups like were seen in the UK quite a lot right now and nature as well.

00:21:55: We sort of dominate over...we see ourselves As under control or we dont have these wild sort of shadowy parts that Were not part Of Nature but actually are aswell.

00:22:05: So The works on this show explore These three watercolour paintings.

00:22:10: There's a generative sound piece and then there is visual pieces that are interactive, but I made using the game engine in quantum computing and AI.

00:22:20: The soundpiece uses quantum computing as well!

00:22:23: Everything gets entangled together...

00:22:26: It was also participatory somehow right?

00:22:30: How could viewers of the exhibition participate in maybe discovering their own shadow in some way?

00:22:39: Yeah, exactly so.

00:22:40: I mean... First of all hopefully just contemplation in the space helps people to reflect on their own shadow because when i'm vulnerable it's not explicit-I'm not being didactic about my shadow but you know there are certain imagery and emotional aspects of work that might trigger something for people to think about themselves.

00:23:02: But in terms of like the literal interaction with a visual work It is a big projected work And when you sit in front of it, at first if your looking out from a distance elsewhere on the gallery space its moving up kind-of fast pace.

00:23:19: There's lots of imagery related to the Turner paintings but also my automatic drawing and writing practices which ground everything... ...and there is sound track as well just quite emotional.

00:23:31: But when you're sitting with this beam bag in front for work slows right down So the speed of videos and images, everything drops.

00:23:41: And it becomes more like a painting... ...and you see yourself through your webcam in the work.

00:23:45: so you're part this sort of tumultuous landscape or maybe because I was also working with Golden Shadow as well which is positive – more positive….

00:23:56: I guess they are blurry but then there's a spoken narrative that starts to play then that perhaps invites you to see yourself and think more of your self in that space.

00:24:08: So it's seeing yourself gazing back out at this shadowy landscape, but not literally... You do see yourself!

00:24:14: But its' not.

00:24:16: super-literally there is like almost a ghost.. you're there & not there & everything still shifting little bit.

00:24:22: It´s not fixed.

00:24:24: Yeah.

00:24:26: You mentioned the post anthropocentric world As probably a perspective that's much needed nowadays.

00:24:33: Also when it comes to, I think you've also done work related to climate change and the planet which is obviously... You also mentioned before The human centeredness or the human idea of being above nature.

00:24:45: So in what way do you feel your work?

00:24:48: Or quantum thinking, quantum feeling can help us move beyond this anthropocentric idea Humans ruling over the world and controlling it or dominating in some

00:25:00: way.

00:25:00: Yeah, that's a really good question.

00:25:02: I think of many ways But hope but i guess my work doesn't lecture It's not telling you sort of perhaps showing you?

00:25:10: And it depends on how people look right.

00:25:13: and also I see humans as part Of nature in a horizontal way.

00:25:18: no Not above but also maybe not below As well because people often talk about more than human.

00:25:24: what I see is like it's a horizontal web and quantum because of the non-binary nature of quantum that many different possibilities or all possibilities can exist at once kind of in an unhierarchical way, in an entangled way deeply entangled.

00:25:43: so entangled about.

00:25:44: there is no way to get any individual out moreso than like say bacteria in our gut.

00:25:52: It's a much stronger symbiosis than we can ever imagine really.

00:25:56: and these concepts help us think about ourselves as part of nature.

00:26:02: And I think the way for me at least to approach that, I mean I've approached it in a number of ways my work... As sort of physical materiality i use slime a lot.

00:26:17: Yes, I wanted to get into it as well.

00:26:19: So tell us more about Slime and... Yeah!

00:26:21: ...I love the word also Uus.

00:26:23: Oh, Uus?

00:26:24: Of Deutsch?

00:26:26: Was ist Us?

00:26:27: Was is

00:26:27: Us?!

00:26:28: I have to think.

00:26:29: It's... Slime is Schleim.

00:26:31: Sleim!?

00:26:32: Yeah, I look like German

00:26:33: yeah.

00:26:33: And Uses probably some….

00:26:37: I can't even say.

00:26:38: You know.. I don't even know if there was an appropriate translation of Us in

00:26:41: German.

00:26:41: Maybe you just use that English word.

00:26:45: Yeah.

00:26:46: Yeah, in English mucus is quite nice.

00:26:50: So let again we forget that We are a part of nature.

00:26:54: right but if you put your tongue inside your cheek And we start to feel our slimy self and then all of our orifices are slimy so there's no like.

00:27:06: maybe we don't call it slime But was like a mucous or viscous gel also?

00:27:11: You know snot or wax over something that protects us or allow certain things through and repel other things.

00:27:19: So all of our orifices are slimy, you know, a vagina or elsewhere everywhere.

00:27:27: And I think there's no multi-cellular life form without some sort of slime or gel at its core.

00:27:35: so it is this connecting substance throughout the whole life but also speaks to quantum particles which become fluid.

00:27:42: There isn't any solid structure up a microscopic level.

00:27:47: I also talk about the slimy world of big tech, but that's probably...

00:27:52: We can all go into that!

00:28:05: I'm curious like.

00:28:10: why you use slime and ooze and similar materials is because these materials open up more multi-verse ways of expressing yourself or almost like translating maybe some of these quantum ideas into our Binary reality.

00:28:32: because I think you also talk about The translation process and the difficulty of representation Because we live in this free D world that is binary many ways at least.

00:28:43: how we perceive it today.

00:28:45: So there's always, from these quantum theories is an act of translation because we can't otherwise talk about it.

00:28:52: Is slime and ooze a way to translate this into something that we know but at the same time opens up?

00:28:59: Quantum world isn't slimy.

00:29:01: It's something beyond.

00:29:03: Even I can't even imagine what is actually there, but I love it because slime is really repulsive and breaks down binaries right?

00:29:09: It's repulsive...I'll give you some slimy like oh!

00:29:12: But also as a seductive nature about it.

00:29:16: You know..it is slippery Its uncontainable its boundary-less its neither solid nor liquid Like occupies liminal spaces.

00:29:25: Is it alive or dead?

00:29:27: Talks about health Disgust.

00:29:30: Other angle, you know.

00:29:31: You're a bit slimy slimy people.

00:29:33: There's a lot to unpack there.

00:29:36: I mean i've done it in multiple works since twenty two like slime core Slime call I'm sure got some other slimy waxes But um...I think when I use quantum computing as well When I used sort of the non-binary nature from superposition To say for instance generatively edit video what you're seeing is literally multiple different temporalities all existing at once.

00:30:05: So some artists quite often talk about that and tell you about non-linear time, a non-linear temporality but your seeing actually the materiality of acting through using quantum computing You always get this sort of blurry almost fluid light nature to that because there's videos all playing at once and this huge sort of multiverse of different viewpoints, alternative perspectives all at once.

00:30:33: And the aesthetic is a bit watery it's a bit fluid It is a little slimy even if its not literal slime I'm working with.

00:30:42: So something about dissolving and breaking down the existing categories and hierarchies are back to things like or anthropocentric, sort of resisting those and going into a space of something beyond.

00:31:03: So you mentioned before the tech world that's slimy?

00:31:09: Slimey big tag!

00:31:10: And maybe we can go in to it little bit more

00:31:13: because... You're funded by Vienna business.

00:31:17: if they want you

00:31:18: to get into them I'm curious what do think?

00:31:20: Because yeah i think Using quantum as a framework can also open up new possibilities, new opportunities to move beyond this world that we live in today which is so dominated by tech narratives and tech logics.

00:31:40: That lot of people or the flattening culture that we discussed before basically can be described making copies of copies not being very original boundary-dissolving but actually just like replicating what's been there.

00:31:54: So how could in that sense, yeah How could quantum open up new possibilities to go beyond that?

00:32:01: I think it does In multiple ways.

00:32:06: i'm trying to think the best way...I've got a lot say of this The best way to describe It But..i always talk about the double edge Of quantum computing.

00:32:17: How on one hand There is this radical potential That we're sort of discussing but on the other hand they are a weapon etc.

00:32:25: and may can replicate, copy and extend exponentially as you already said at the start.

00:32:31: The existing in different ways.

00:32:35: so depending who produces tools for artists I saw one that was published recently on a scientific website where the company had made like, a quantum brush for artists and it just copied... we've copied a Mondrian or Matisse maybe.

00:32:51: It's like why do you need quantum?

00:32:54: We can already make copies!

00:32:56: So if they're right tools are developed.

00:32:57: i think it could really help us to sort of dissolve and move into something more shape-shifting and co-constitutive.

00:33:10: You're probably always coupled with some sort of virtual environment because you always need that interface to bring quantum back into this reality, but as quantum computing develops we'll start just get closer what it really is.

00:33:26: This quantum materiality within its entanglements and superposition.

00:33:31: And for instance...you can't copy in the quantum world.

00:33:34: That's impossible.

00:33:36: So almost like you've got infinite originals combining and morphing, changing in different ways.

00:33:43: And I think this opens up questions around.

00:33:48: you know well everything.

00:33:51: Capitalism is based on copies accounting is copying keeping track of...

00:33:56: So we can finally move beyond capitalism maybe?

00:34:01: Oh come see me!

00:34:03: In another reality

00:34:06: right?!

00:34:06: I think it's like quantum gives us hints of how, the fundamental physics give us hints on how we can move beyond capitalism.

00:34:14: But big tech own retools and if their past history or ethics are anything to go by then they're going be used for profit control and military unless Big Tech change in that environment.

00:34:26: but operating changes... ...I don't think literally will move beyond Capitalism.

00:34:32: but artists propose using Quantum I would say feeling, not thinking and the tools in inventive magical ways.

00:34:41: And i think we can sort of show where the cracks are perhaps?

00:34:46: I don't know...I don't have all

00:34:48: the answers!

00:34:49: You don't HAVE to have them.

00:34:51: there's a very cliche quote which It's been attributed, I think to John Lennon but that is just the internet.

00:34:59: Maybe it was someone else who said if you can't imagine it then do so!

00:35:06: To me my understanding of quantum is now moving in a direction where we feel like this is very useful tool for imagining alternative futures and imagination might open up new ways of bringing them back into reality.

00:35:20: whether Quantum computing happens or not, you know.

00:35:25: Or quantum in general happens are not might not be that important.

00:35:29: Once we open up the portals to something else We might find other ways of bringing it back into this reality.

00:35:35: I love that.

00:35:36: Yeah No i do!

00:35:38: I think an artist or creatives have all musicians or literature does it very well Films...I Think It Does like just is Like, you know just butting up against all these unknowable areas.

00:35:53: I mean that's what religion is all about right like What happens after we die and what happens to our spirits?

00:35:59: And how do they affect us in this reality.

00:36:02: We have to appease them or whatever.

00:36:04: think about how creative Religion has been over millennia.

00:36:09: So i guess quantum is similar to that.

00:36:11: it was when we hit the limits of knowledge.

00:36:16: That's when imagination, as you say, flourishes.

00:36:19: But I think also we need to... Imagination is still quite in our brain.

00:36:24: maybe there's something more about dropping into our bodies as well.

00:36:28: so it's like less jawless or in our heads but to feel things and i think that is really important at the moment too.

00:36:39: Do you see that more artists are embracing quantum?

00:36:42: Yeah,

00:36:44: I think it's interesting for artists.

00:36:45: What what i've been trying to do on my Instagram and I don't know...I'm happy to be criticised but a lot of artist encounter quantum may sort one bring back this binary reality.

00:36:57: so I was at the Sonal Festival doing this corporate talk private corporate And someone was saying like, oh quantum helps us not an artist by the way.

00:37:08: Helps us to think about diversity in companies because it helps us think about multiple different voices.

00:37:14: and obviously I'm not going to call them up and say that's not quantum but its' not quantum because you can already you don't need to invoke quantum, think of multiple different voices.

00:37:25: You should be doing it already like.

00:37:27: I'm all for diversity.

00:37:28: that's what will happen.

00:37:29: so how can we push the imaginaries further away from those first steps into something more magical?

00:37:39: So i talk a lot about trying open up.

00:37:43: What was the question?

00:37:44: If more artists are in praise and quantity.

00:37:46: Oh

00:37:47: yeah, I just think keep pushing beyond first steps into something... ...more of going wild!

00:37:56: Yeah..I read this idea from The Grammar.

00:38:01: I like the idea of grammar, establishing a grammar for artists using quantum or maybe beyond.

00:38:06: artist people are using quantum.

00:38:09: Would you say that might be part of your practice?

00:38:11: Of establishing a gramma on how quantum can be introduced in the arts and in the crafty process?

00:38:18: I have my own ways right but man i feel it's quantum.

00:38:22: so there should be multiple ways to do this.

00:38:25: But one thing is if it looks No, if it looks like this reality.

00:38:32: If that's an artwork or a process That is very you know.

00:38:36: if I've made just to be really simplistic image of the house Then even if i use quantum computing to get there Is It Really Quantum?

00:38:46: Or not?

00:38:47: because Its Just What We Have Already.

00:38:50: So Where Is This Sort Of?

00:38:52: Because Quantum Is A Break.

00:38:53: There's a discontinuity for miscontext, from this environment.

00:38:57: So how can that be expressed?

00:38:59: through the process or with outcome of an artwork and sound piece?

00:39:04: And I guess there is not one way to do it but encouraging people to keep pushing into these unknown abilities because...

00:39:17: Learning about living with the unknown.

00:39:19: I'm known-unknown!

00:39:23: But I don't think that my way is for grammar.

00:39:26: I think there should be grammars.

00:39:27: Yeah,

00:39:27: and I think different people all around the world in different locations and Genders and so on will have their own approaches which really important.

00:39:37: Maybe to finish up the conversation?

00:39:38: I think what I love about your practice is that if I feel like you move You explore a lot of different fields.

00:39:46: You don't limit yourself to like one Way of expressing yourselves.

00:39:52: you develop personally along with your work.

00:39:55: So I'm curious, what is it that you're currently working on or interested in exploring?

00:40:00: Is it something the world hasn't seen before for your work?

00:40:03: Yeah!

00:40:04: Oh my gosh let me tell you what i've been doing so...I just got back from Norwich yesterday and I am working at Sainsbury Centre which quite a big art museum.

00:40:14: here They have a wonderful collection, I think it's about five thousand works that span the globe and span millennia.

00:40:23: That were collected by the Sainsbury family before being gifted to university.

00:40:28: The Sainsberry is supermarkets

00:40:30: now?

00:40:30: I've been there connected.

00:40:31: yeah It housed in this huge Norman Foster building from before he was even famous So its quite remarkable space.

00:40:38: but they treat their collections like its living so each of our artworks or objects.

00:40:44: they consider them to be animate which is interesting for me right and so they've commissioned me for a new work that I'll be ready next year, their forthcoming meaning of life season.

00:40:57: So i'm laughing because obviously the meaning of like it's such a big question.

00:41:02: what is the meaning?

00:41:03: We can't answer but its also perfect.

00:41:09: So I'm approaching it through the lens of quantum physics, but thinking about it through emotions.

00:41:14: Through love and grief And both for subjective my experience with a meaning-of life when my sister Sally died But also speaking to working with just few artworks in their collection because they're alive.

00:41:28: so perhaps They can tell me their meaning of life?

00:41:31: yesterday i spent wonderful hour With a sculpture by The French German surrealist Jean hands up, there's this gold bronze small sort of sculpture which looks a bit like a curved tentacle.

00:41:48: Which is very me and I just sat with it and held it and touched it and hugged for about an hour when my eyes closed.

00:41:56: It was talking to...I mean in my mind.

00:41:58: so i'm hanging out with it getting into know-it So that the process will be repeating alot and then I'm going to be making artwork based on various things, yes.

00:42:12: So eventually you would move into performance even?

00:42:15: Oh my god!

00:42:15: I've been doing some performances... No i have done some performances.

00:42:20: yeah it always scares

00:42:23: me!

00:42:23: I'd love to watch you hug a sculpture for an hour.

00:42:27: oh yeah that will be sick actually.

00:42:28: Yeah no other performances of Donant like that.

00:42:32: That's much easier.

00:42:33: It is really beautiful sculpture when in a very different way to then if you're just looking at it.

00:42:41: Well, I ended up that.

00:42:43: thank-you!

00:42:44: Thank so much.