00:00:00: For me, the play games... The play with objects might be content objects or parts of reality.

00:00:09: It's a way to look closely at whatever object we have because when not only reflect but also somehow digest and make our actions have some consequences.

00:00:32: Hello and welcome to the Culture & Technology Podcast.

00:00:35: My name is Severin Matasek,

00:00:37: today's

00:00:37: guest is Margarete Jamani.

00:00:40: Margarethe is an artist, researcher and professor at the Experimental Game Cultures Department in the University of Applied Arts in Vienna.

00:00:51: Welcome!

00:00:52: Thank

00:00:52: you, Severine.

00:00:56: I'm curious about the format as a tool for research.

00:01:00: So I think that's really what makes up the department here at Experimental Game Cultures, as well your artistic and research practice.

00:01:08: Of course there are many research projects in universities and research labs around the world... ...that research distortions and hallucinations in AI but probably a more traditional academic sense of studying reading writing so on.

00:01:24: This is my first time seeing an academic university department, create a game around it.

00:01:30: And as we saw I think its completely different experience of knowledge transmission and knowledge creation participation in the research process.

00:01:41: so i'm curious what are your thoughts about using this game for research?

00:01:46: Yeah thank you so very much for that question!

00:01:49: This is really essential to me.

00:01:52: The game, the play itself is a method.

00:01:57: This so-called ludic method as I framed it which really is special approach that i have in my work with artists since the beginning of the game art related works around the two thousands.

00:02:14: So from my point to view games can be used More than this.

00:02:21: they can be developed as an experimental tool.

00:02:25: So it's more interesting.

00:02:26: if you think about that, You have certain ludic processes playful steps ways of action Of decision-making of ergon and toddlers of ergodic literature That you can design the way you need.

00:02:41: I don't think It's so interesting to investigate like game studies Ways of using a game that is first a game pair itself and what does it do to society.

00:02:53: All fair, but the take of the ludic method creative in the sense of really designing optional mechanics, certain ways how to act and make an experience.

00:03:07: And also then it is possible to investigate as you said also phenomenons we see society or speculative objects that we see emerging are coming up.

00:03:20: That's why I say for me play games the play with objects, might it be content-objects or parts of a reality?

00:03:31: It's way to look closely at whatever object we have.

00:03:35: Because when not only reflect but also somehow digest and make our actions have some consequences We have consider in what situation are... And this allows different experience.

00:03:50: therefore has other advantages.

00:03:54: a repeatable experiment also because of

00:03:57: the setting.

00:03:58: We can repeat game, try different versions... Interesting!

00:04:01: That's why I came closer to sciences with this approach that we use games for researching and we can generate data that can be compared afterwards which is what i explained in one example from RoboSight chat game where we can analyze afterwards the data that we haven't compared with a statistical... qualitative mode methods with quantitative debriefing situations.

00:04:32: We usually also do questionnaires of what you know before or afterwards, so it has a lot connection possibilities and the synchrilitis is big opportunity that was not considered in other contexts even internationally.

00:04:48: I really think we have unique program here.

00:04:53: Going back to the ludic method.

00:04:56: From my research I understood, as you said... ...you started in the early two-thousands to start with that method or develop it.. ..I think in two thousand six you found a ludic society.

00:05:07: then in twenty twenty one there was a ludics manifesto.

00:05:10: i think just recently earlier this year they were at conference on the ludik methods.

00:05:15: so its seemed me have been developing and experimenting for many years.

00:05:22: How would you say it evolved from when you started in the early two thousands to where we are now?

00:05:29: Mm-hmm.

00:05:29: Yeah, thank you for all your careful observations.

00:05:33: We're very well informed person here next to me.

00:05:37: that's true.

00:05:39: If I give a bit an overview how this approach To put play ludic processes into the center of my life and work, experiences somehow.

00:05:53: It started with my own artistic practice.

00:05:58: there I developed... With the practice of technologies for games in play, game engines, modifying those engines effectively create network installations that hook up on net processes, even then we tried to open the engines and wanted to show the network processors.

00:06:24: We programmed Linux commandos into Unix in three-to-a-thousand four and made an installation with a antiwar shooter out of it.

00:06:32: so we modified the shooter game.

00:06:34: there I noticed this was my first take where the game modification became a method for creating meaningful play, artworks with some meaning was critical approach to society.

00:06:48: And then only after this two thousand six as you said I've founded The Ludic Society which really had these ideas of social situation that is really aligned.

00:07:01: i think we have Capital as social beings and with this society.

00:07:09: This is a brilliant Society was members in everything but with publications.

00:07:15: we have fancings I have it around somewhere here, and We had one so monthly Quarterly femtines.

00:07:24: Oh, what's that?

00:07:25: This is the Ludicke I thought online.

00:07:26: actually

00:07:28: yes That's a collectors item there beautiful on to the thousand six indeed And as you see it is lasting.

00:07:38: It's a sort of fencing with theory and also practice, design elements... These were circuit boards so they were designed by Max Moswitzer worked also a lot.

00:07:54: I always have corporations, you never work alone.

00:07:57: very good i think that's weird for me

00:08:01: yeah

00:08:02: and no not for everybody.

00:08:04: but we had these were working circuit boards.

00:08:07: then after was designed as expanded game interfaces And so all the game material became materials for arts and for a discursive art.

00:08:16: So this was Take One, and with The Society we exchanged and there were men philosophers artists lot of practitioners and then we had a format that I introduced with the colleagues in England in Plymouth cities where i did my PhD presented it first time the Ludic Society where we introduced sores and city games, urban games interventions in public space with game rules.

00:08:46: And these sores were events that always linked to exhibition and discourse at a magazine of different levels.

00:08:54: I think.

00:08:55: then a decade later... ...in the Cabaret Voltaire in Zurich which is the founding place of Dada.

00:09:07: There were hundred years of dadaism, or the founding of Dara.

00:09:12: we made a book The Void Book and that was considered as Ending point of the ludic society, but it didn't end.

00:09:21: But

00:09:22: okay formally

00:09:23: we made We said now It's over yeah years like this, but I meant on a still to ludic methods erase here in the department and other spaces around University Indiana.

00:09:38: Then we did the Void book and this idea was, it is a book which is empty in black.

00:09:44: It's printed black on black because emptiness gives space for others to do something.

00:09:51: And you see that these books are no more empty Because they gave them back to somebody.

00:09:55: They gave it back to me.

00:09:56: Everybody makes some things.

00:09:58: So there were also books with participatory elements?

00:10:01: Yes of

00:10:02: course The social element and how it evolved as an artist It was then the step two of this ludic method, I would say.

00:10:12: And than i have to say out-of-this from twenty seventeen eighteen...I'm not exactly sure!

00:10:20: I started with the Neuromatic Game Art project that was already from the FVF peak program for the Austrian Science Fund a cooperation with neurosciences And cognitive sciences and philosophy with the University of Vienna, with Mark Koecklberg.

00:10:40: Then it was Munich but now it's with Bramptonburg Technical University, with the Computation in Neurosciences... ...and different partners in Vienna where I had serious research partners!

00:10:57: And then I proposed the Ludic method.

00:11:00: Let's use play as we discussed before, some way to make experiments and work with your weird electroencephalogram brain reading interfaces etc...

00:11:14: So it is almost like you that the format of a game coming back from an original question about games and playing as research vehicle allows almost like stick together different things in an ecosystem and connect them, somehow program so that they become experienceable.

00:11:36: It's a very nice image you choose there.

00:11:40: It allows me or others to suggest it as a method also for those of us who are interested to connect also different disciplines in a very fruitful way, where we have... because often from the different fields.

00:11:57: From design, arts, neuroscience, cognitive sciences, psychology and technology development We are always early adopters of technologies And you can connect via this game as a connecting point or vehicle where we use it for different purposes, but its difficult.

00:12:20: We need like an object that connects and has connection points in the allows to do that.

00:12:27: I would say so yes It is a special take on what play is or What game systems could be?

00:12:34: But i think they allow to connect.

00:12:37: Can you tell me more about exactly game system, rule-based games set up?

00:12:43: that I think is part of the game we played and has been a part your practice as well.

00:12:49: Because to my understanding there's way can play popular games on Playstation computers etc.

00:12:56: by purely enjoying what they experience it gives us.

00:13:00: And then i would say another way of analyzing even these very popular games as systemic structures where the programmers and creators of these games have applied certain approaches, ideologies options to make that experience.

00:13:16: which is more maybe a systemic analysis on how game works.

00:13:20: The skeleton may be behind it.

00:13:22: I think i'm curious about your approach because this approach of dissecting how games give us rules in certain options

00:13:35: Yeah.

00:13:36: Yes, because I really think these ways how we play games might it be a card game or computer game?

00:13:47: Or a board game?

00:13:48: all sure of it.

00:13:50: they always off course show a lot Of our human society but also our human condition.

00:14:04: And we also can play with other entities, animals and bacteria or data.

00:14:12: Non-human players.

00:14:14: but they show that.

00:14:16: so to bring it to the point this one here is a fabric.

00:14:20: you see in there.

00:14:21: That's what I handprinted out of a dataset.

00:14:28: The lines did as well.

00:14:31: They are from a brain scan.

00:14:33: From running electroencephalogram of three players and then we were connecting the three different data sets on top, you also see hand drawn drawings for concept down there.

00:14:48: I think in other side or here on the transparent, you see very much also this one.

00:14:56: Here you can see polymorphic objects of three players in

00:15:01: one

00:15:02: and they are distorted then become transparent.

00:15:06: I will wear them next week for an outpriced dress to show my clear thoughts With Electroencephalogram, with these EEGs where you can measure the very low currencies which are used for many games.

00:15:36: They also say us something about the structure of play.

00:15:40: and why is it about competition?

00:15:43: And playing... winning!

00:15:45: What does winning

00:15:46: mean?

00:15:47: Yeah..and

00:15:47: what's the motivation to play?

00:15:52: Can we work...?

00:15:53: because of fine flow, and can we work together strategically?

00:15:56: Or do you always want to play a solo-play and win.

00:16:00: Why is it so satisfying very often to win!

00:16:04: And what does that mean if you play... Then I said okay this is the interest.

00:16:09: how could we dissect these elements of playing?

00:16:13: really make certain situations where this becomes clearer for

00:16:17: us?

00:16:20: How did you teach that at Experimental Game Cultures?

00:16:24: What are your methods of transporting that knowledge to the next generation?

00:16:30: Now, yeah first I have to say what my method is.

00:16:33: To develop this knowledge and allow you as this generation... ...I don't know who it's the next generations.

00:16:42: we're all this generation.

00:16:44: We only had one generation because if they lose then no generation anymore at home to allow, make such an experience setting.

00:16:55: And if I give a example that's also what we did... We designed in the group of researchers card game for three players and i'll now also invite people students big groups of student who had already as participants or so other peoples from Vienna from all over the place to play with us in a situation where you have New card game.

00:17:27: Nobody knows their rules before.

00:17:29: It's a trick-taking games so very quick one Where as always five cards then?

00:17:34: You play out, and then you make a trick.

00:17:36: this has to hear you get The wind yeah And we have the possibility of being like the dryers schnapps but it's different.

00:17:48: I think it's not the rules we know.

00:17:49: The possibility that we too cooperate against Mr.

00:17:55: Wolf, who is here behind the camera right now and we decide this...

00:17:59: We can

00:18:00: team up!

00:18:02: And then if you parallel to that have any Narren Kappe which means ...this isn't an EEG but if he has such a helmet on which measures our signals parallel It has electrodes, at least.

00:18:16: I'll take care of it a little bit... At the Festspielhaus Hellerau already for our performance with electrodes where we could also make sound with these electrodes and playables.

00:18:30: The beautiful design on the helmet is made by Talos Keidel as a sculptor who works very often.

00:18:39: It was an idea nice Odra deck, I call it after Franz Kafka.

00:18:47: It has feet and walk.

00:18:49: that's transportable.

00:18:50: That was in the year of Abana in Cuba with some electrodes.

00:18:59: But we go back

00:19:04: We cooperate against the third player And then this game is set up in an experimental setting And we play, and then we see five cards displayed on the screen.

00:19:17: As or not?

00:19:18: On a board you would move too much for an experiment that cannot be moved as much.

00:19:23: It's even difficult with audio.

00:19:25: but imagine having these low currency signals from your brain.

00:19:29: they will produce to many artefacts.

00:19:32: Not in good sense But in bad sense.

00:19:34: For our experience artefactions are bad.

00:19:39: And then if we measure these signals, If we team up We already would see in the data of The frequency bands.

00:19:49: This is one Of the first results that we too received a visual signal of the card played out differently than from Mr Wolf.

00:20:00: Even he sees it's same even before we consciously reflect, I don't want to cooperate or not.

00:20:07: No!

00:20:08: Already it's enough that you know when in a social situation we perceive the sensory signal.

00:20:16: and they find this goes so deep already Biles but we perceive differently.

00:20:27: and what does this mean for our action?

00:20:30: And then comes the clue of the game in the next round new cuts.

00:20:34: We all have these EEG helmets.

00:20:38: Yeah Immediately, we have a possibility to team up.

00:20:43: Heinz and me are teaming up against you.

00:20:45: Now we two perceive differently And nevertheless, both get into the flow.

00:20:51: That's also one result.

00:20:53: After these experiments We've made a quantitative analysis of the game Of the newly designed games.

00:20:59: They all say that they're happy.

00:21:02: afterwards.

00:21:03: Everybody enjoyed the flow Which is weird.

00:21:07: So what do brainwaves... Analyze them while playing.

00:21:13: Are you saying that they showed to the element of play within human nature, which is inherently happening before we even understand it?

00:21:25: Because there are signals in the brain waves.

00:21:30: What did you find out from a brain wave?

00:21:34: It is a bit difficult, it's not only analyzing play.

00:21:38: Play is the vehicle to analyze something deeper about maybe society and principles of motivation or cooperation even our social system about also our ideas of what capital and win is, so it's deeper.

00:21:58: It isn't not so much analyzing play per se but the place here more a vehicle.

00:22:04: I have to admit that besides this everybody else loves to play!

00:22:08: And

00:22:09: afterwards there was more happy which I think also that the ways we play, i want to analyze and communicate this with students.

00:22:24: The young colleagues or older colleagues it's not every... We have no age limit here.

00:22:29: so yeah This is absolutely not a point.

00:22:32: A very heterogeneous group in the institute.

00:22:35: It was totally important for me from all different backgrounds at fields So very diverse and heterogeneous In all ways.

00:22:43: you can sing But also this is important that I can communicate and say, OK.

00:22:49: We have some certain principles And we have a certain patterns of design in game design but they are not given They're not uh-given.

00:22:57: Yes!

00:23:01: How shall I put it?

00:23:05: There's no nature at all I don't think...but we like to compete.

00:23:11: Is competition bad?

00:23:14: I don't think so to be honest.

00:23:17: That's also weird, but the way we do it and find these friendly competition which is far beyond or very different from war really hating each other.

00:23:32: that's an interesting point.

00:23:33: where you have this motivation and accumulation of goods Where does it come form?

00:23:41: Are there different ways?

00:23:44: and in mere worth of a win or for merit.

00:23:47: And I think this is, i try to communicate these via experience situations... I have here my examination beds in my studio space where work but we also have the individual Talks with the students also and this is of course a remainder Of some of my own performances, which I did was two beds.

00:24:11: Also where to people were lying and synchronizing By doing nothing Which is also like an absurd statement.

00:24:19: but i want to provide experience situation that they really play With the people.

00:24:25: we make tests will make experiments And be also set up these things.

00:24:29: We don't teach bad mainly by telling although I tell a lot because i like to talk also.

00:24:36: But not only, the main thing is what experiences you make?

00:24:40: What can provide your group as well and it's not just my experience but mine too!

00:24:55: Artist is the easiest thing to describe what we do and also the colleagues And then we have test situations among each other experiments.

00:25:04: That's why we always go.

00:25:06: We haven't protected space where we discuss internally But this is also in a peer group open at them very soon, it very often you make even more Open such experience situation through public good for us as experience.

00:25:26: And then we come up with conclusions maybe, or our own acting.

00:25:30: What if the last part of conversation actually changed a setting and we lie on beds?

00:25:35: I had to

00:25:38: wait so long!

00:25:53: I very much like this setting.

00:25:56: So let's experiment how it changes the conversations.

00:26:00: i can't see you right now.

00:26:03: So I wondered with how you now explained the different, understanding different dynamics of game and play within society as in winning competition teaming up against each other collaboration.

00:26:19: You mentioned once we analyze it We understand that It's just one possible way Of playing.

00:26:27: maybe And there might be several reasons why why winning, for example is so important in our world or society.

00:26:34: But I'm curious about your thoughts on exploring alternative ways of playing that might not even exist yet but maybe games and different formats of play might open up?

00:26:49: That can change how we collaborate with each other or see the world design the worlds.

00:26:57: What are you thought like this?

00:27:01: Well, so we are now lying on two examination beds in a very special position.

00:27:17: They have one head to the other hat.

00:27:20: We don't look at each other.

00:27:23: Somehow we feel probably... At least when you hear me talk that we're both here At the moment, I change position of my body from the senkrechte to vertical.

00:27:39: Vertical

00:27:39: horizontal?

00:27:41: Vertical to the horizontal exactly!

00:27:45: I already have a different voice and maybe also my condition... ...my mindset changes at least my perception also changes.

00:27:55: that's what i know Also for some experiments.

00:27:58: Also the perception of what horizontal is, it's shifting.

00:28:04: When I'm lying... ...I perceive twenty or I don't know how many degrees but its about twenty.

00:28:10: I think differently and have some of these examination objects here.

00:28:16: For me this a nice take because not as much you said before seven.

00:28:23: when we analyze ways that play We see how they reflect.

00:28:28: Normally we don't reflect after analyzing.

00:28:33: Only theory, very seldom only knowing about the condition and situation you are in seldomly leads to a change of action or behavior because it's very hard though It is not so easy.

00:28:48: but if you make different experiences of lying then you act already differently.

00:28:57: And so I think playing differently, making this experience... Making the hand on experience.

00:29:02: that's why we need to have these artefacts of play and also experimental play maybe some mechanics that fail at experiencing it differently.

00:29:13: This allows us something as a consequence Maybe for our living together Let say with which role.

00:29:23: So I'm laying on one side and now i invite you to get up.

00:29:32: Is it different?

00:29:34: Yeah, It's different!

00:29:36: This is a bit more comfortable...

00:29:39: I find this one very agreeable.

00:29:41: It already nicely warmed-up from your... I can feel which is beautiful for me.

00:29:49: To have some warm feeling from somebody present before, something like this.

00:29:56: But okay that was not really a focused experiment.

00:30:00: but in certain focus situations I say what if you play... You all know?

00:30:08: i don't know If your international audience also knows!

00:30:10: But I think you all know.

00:30:12: Seedlove

00:30:12: Catan.

00:30:13: Yeah the Settlers of Catan.

00:30:17: And I suggest it also, a family hates me at Christmas.

00:30:22: Let's play it but we introduce an extra rule.

00:30:27: Okay

00:30:27: We have dice with this row and if the number six come... ...we all have to switch the position.

00:30:37: Yes

00:30:38: The kids hate me.

00:30:41: Everybody who plays it a lot hates me.

00:30:43: But they were so kind to change these positions And it totally, what do you think how would affect your strategy?

00:30:52: It was even I made with several games.

00:30:55: I tested this in the lab

00:30:57: here

00:30:58: and it totally changed also... What does that mean?

00:31:02: if we are at a position where you did not set up initially such as strategic game How is winning feel then?

00:31:12: And many people say it, some said now winning didn't feel okay anymore because I did not do the work for it or things like that.

00:31:21: Or you play completely different.

00:31:25: what would your think?

00:31:26: How will you behave?

00:31:29: Well if i win then it feels less than my strategy and talent Play of luck that I could.

00:31:41: there was an element.

00:31:42: That I couldn't control yes, and so yeah, I would.

00:31:47: I Would play completely differently because I would always be ready to change my cards or my seats with someone else.

00:31:53: There's simply no incentive too for example play extremely well Or win because I could lose it anytime on its outside my control.

00:32:03: Yeah But couldn you change your strategy if you play a bit longer?

00:32:09: Yeah, I think so.

00:32:10: I think

00:32:12: that you still can contribute something and it is also good if You move to the next position Mm-hmm?

00:32:20: yeah And i mean i guess It could even feel like

00:32:26: first this introduction of two fall off chance Is not good because your feet out of control mm-hmm.

00:32:34: But if you play a bit longer and have this situation, probably you can.

00:32:38: And that's also what one of the players said they could develop or change new strategy to set up an economic system.

00:32:51: Then it started becoming interesting.

00:32:54: I love your

00:32:55: example.

00:32:58: I'm curious.

00:32:59: That

00:33:02: was already my

00:33:03: relation.

00:33:04: So I'm curious to start from the beginning of how the Experimental Game Culture Department was set up, that it wasn't in twenty-twenty one right?

00:33:12: Right!

00:33:12: And so its been four years now... Of you teaching here or establishing this lab.

00:33:20: How did come about at first place were.

00:33:22: you are the ones who had an idea like the University of Applied Arts finally needs a game culture department and im gonna do it.

00:33:29: Or..how did happen?

00:33:32: Okay, now I have to get up again.

00:33:33: You lay down and I'll

00:33:35: lay it out okay.

00:33:37: It's very nice that you appreciate And think That strong power of my personality That i can go there and suggest let's do this.

00:33:51: ok indeed did This yeah but years ago.

00:33:55: But then There was no department for such a study know?

00:34:00: Of course, there was a public call.

00:34:05: I applied for a job about twenty years ago in Switzerland and Zurich before.

00:34:13: I was in Boston at the MIT Gumbit Lab where we were investigating games with Henry Jenkins.

00:34:21: Yes, Bayou was there when I was writing up my PhD.

00:34:25: And then in Switzerland, I was in a classical game design department also helping to build this up from scratch.

00:34:34: So it's good experience how the scene is evolving and developing.

00:34:38: that wasn't there at all before But then there was a call from the university, so I didn't go and suggest to take me because that's not how it goes with Professor

00:34:51: Schip.

00:34:53: Or good soul!

00:34:55: It might be possible but of course also an interest in the call and they were applying for it And went through competition International one where people experimenting on games Art & Play were applying And after presenting through, there were several presenters at a public hearing.

00:35:19: I got the call and was accepted to come here in Vienna... ...to come back to Vienna, move again….

00:35:27: …and I'm happy that it's been a fantastic chance.

00:35:33: we can have this in context like this University of Applied Art which is an university focused on on the impact of society, on a meaning-of-art and experimenting with games that play beyond pure game design.

00:35:49: And this is very unique.

00:35:51: take I said okay find myself.

00:35:58: I presented my work that really mirrored a lot of these aspects and I suggested also A new program extended Program where introduced the New concept Also based on this ludic mind under ludic metal art on these experienced designs with a special line Of different of a curriculum That also combines expertise from very different backgrounds.

00:36:26: So from experienced artists and also thinkers, philosophers and cultural studies that all together focus on a central artistic work you develop.

00:36:39: And so this program was accepted and wanted by the commission.

00:36:44: That's why I started to build up through this department with the help of very small but beautiful team And now we are slowly growing and already have two, three years of alumni.

00:37:03: All of them entering different fields from curation as you know working at festivals also has their own problem solvers.

00:37:13: so this is something that they really have a high competence in in acting and reacting to problems that we even don't know before.

00:37:24: I think this is something you can learn from setting up certain play and game systems, so that's how Vienna is now in a lucky situation where they have such fantastic department on experimenting with spies through games but also on-play and the Ludic method.

00:37:47: And here we open really a lot of new fields for corporations with different other research fields, but also exhibition fields, playful exhibitions.

00:37:59: that's what we do every year... ...and also a series of these ludic methods soirees and ludic teas that I post very regularly.

00:38:09: That is how it happens.

00:38:10: Beautiful!

00:38:10: Okay

00:38:11: Yeah, and how it is at the moment.

00:38:14: And because we talked about a person maybe you

00:38:17: have to look into this game

00:38:20: that was shown in the digital summer of twenty-five also.

00:38:25: Oh I'm male age twenty thirty, twenty five.

00:38:33: I'm a lot younger and happy.

00:38:34: And happy, in between a bit angry but yeah try to get closer and say what it sees or does it catches you?

00:38:43: Oh now with twenty-eight and happy we agreed!

00:38:47: Now out of your face.

00:38:49: so it is harvesting... It's classifying her face as male aged.

00:38:55: when she

00:38:55: was happy.

00:38:57: I was leaving this gender classification because that's what the face classification systems actually do also.

00:39:06: And

00:39:06: out of the phase, yes exactly!

00:39:08: That is you

00:39:10: very

00:39:11: much.

00:39:11: Very authentic yeah?

00:39:12: No very much!

00:39:14: This drawing shows a masterfully rendered pencil portrait of happy twenty-eight year old male person situated in an Assyrian scenery.

00:39:21: Of course it's beautiful scenery here with a hint of subtle smile.

00:39:26: Confirm that.

00:39:29: Bright eyes and radiant warmth and optimism.

00:39:33: Oh, I want to hug you!

00:39:36: Okay but tell us about this game.

00:39:38: who made it?

00:39:39: How did come up?

00:39:40: or is even a game?

00:39:42: Yes

00:39:43: i made together with Stefan Klaasauer so its Gameblur.

00:39:47: Also luck is again, it's catching you at a certain moment.

00:39:51: Now you are forty-two and sad.

00:39:54: That's very short!

00:39:58: That's closer to my actual reality.

00:40:01: And yeah so we decide.

00:40:03: I like a lot drawings.

00:40:06: Yeah i don't know if you can say...I'd like draw.

00:40:10: with each project I make an outline of the drawing.

00:40:16: Ah, I told you about the electroencephalograms.

00:40:21: So during each experiment i draw... so these are three players having this Narenkappe and have a full cap with electrodes on top of it.

00:40:33: here they're playing the card game.

00:40:36: that's what i drew on

00:40:40: February.

00:40:43: That's pretty much when we started with this series of experiments.

00:40:48: So yeah, whatever!

00:40:49: This is from another game.

00:40:51: that was a tree game which based on growth play where other people draw with me.

00:40:56: they draw the game board while playing.

00:40:59: but I didn't give the booklet to you But

00:41:06: let's stay here and tell us more about

00:41:08: it said, okay let's train an artificial AI system.

00:41:16: Create the game is called A-I in brackets create with my drawings.

00:41:23: and so we were taking a bunch of drawings and training.

00:41:28: this system was my own drawing.

00:41:30: So it's closed local systems.

00:41:32: And then We started to coupling.

00:41:36: that's the create description.

00:41:39: so you see create here, drawing words generating press a button.

00:41:46: that was an earlier version.

00:41:48: shown it amazed.

00:41:55: and let's couple with data harvesting in faith recognition face classifying as also technology surveillance capitalism, technology let's say where we also.

00:42:09: what does it mean if you are classified as sad and happy.

00:42:13: And so the only game move is like incremental games low interaction at a beginning that you look into this face classic and its uh-huh.

00:42:25: fifty five neutral now very realistic good out of the phase.

00:42:33: At this moment when it classifies, a word gambler with five words stops.

00:42:40: And I feeded also another system with all my research application texts.

00:42:48: So having a text of our content research applications from the last years.

00:42:56: and out of these gamblers It gives now here, from the face.

00:43:02: The signal like an amigur-pam-tid, like a... Gambler?

00:43:07: Swat machine!

00:43:08: The slot machine says we have activist, questioning, evolve, robo-philosophy... something.

00:43:15: Oh that's how it works now!

00:43:16: And then I cannot create a drawing anymore.

00:43:20: and out of these five sentences another model that we connected generates a prompt.

00:43:26: okay i don't have to think about prompting only look into the scale.

00:43:29: Okay I see.

00:43:30: you Then

00:43:31: makes this prompt.

00:43:33: it generates out of the prompt that is also made automatically from your face expression.

00:43:40: It has a drawing, and the drawing goes into gallery.

00:43:47: I showed in an art gallery at Articont Gallery.

00:43:53: this is now Sparck.

00:43:57: And then i printed on beautiful written paper with very.

00:44:03: It looks again like a drawing.

00:44:04: Okay, I see!

00:44:06: And to understand it correctly the model on which this runs is entirely trained in your own work?

00:44:11: Your research and drawings.

00:44:13: that's how it generates these.

00:44:14: Yes yes yes... somehow its' like closed loop with my drawings.

00:44:19: they go into it.

00:44:20: then as collector you get only a print generated, but it's again original where you contributed your face.

00:44:30: Yeah I see if you want to.

00:44:31: It's personalized in a way.

00:44:32: yeah okay i don't know all the meanings of it but it is a play element?

00:44:38: Yeah!

00:44:39: The installation, you are very critical about it.

00:44:42: That's what he tells me doesn't lie?

00:44:46: I'm just looking at it and trying to understand.

00:44:49: Look here It is a play with the existing technologies And try make another story out of

00:44:58: it Beautiful.

00:44:59: So maybe finish up this conversation.

00:45:02: How can people that listen our podcast interact With you in?

00:45:06: experimental game cultures Are open for application for next year, do you publish your work on a website?

00:45:13: Where can people find out more.

00:45:14: Yes of course!

00:45:15: Of course we have the experimental game cultures call right now open when you put it online but till January you can apply.

00:45:24: there is the web page Experimental Game Cultures and You Can Apply with this small PDF portfolio And Expressing With A Short Statement Your Interest in Play

00:45:37: where

00:45:38: you think, and can be a writer or a coder but as a sculptor.

00:45:45: This is what we have one person from archaeology here at the moment.

00:45:51: We had writers in different fields And then there's this habit of a personal talk to deepen an interesting approach.

00:46:07: So there is a web page, Experimental Game Cultures where you can have a look and

00:46:12: that's

00:46:13: how you can join us.

00:46:14: Great!

00:46:15: Thankyou so much for the conversation.