00:00:00: I think what we can do is that... ...we celebrate the culture, which brings people together.

00:00:11: It's a magic!

00:00:12: When you go to a place and listen to the same music at the same time.

00:00:18: That's great!

00:00:19: That's something cultural achievement And it will not keep alive if we don't do anything.

00:00:28: I think it's something that has to be reinvented each and

00:00:31: every time.

00:00:42: Hello, welcome to the Culture & Technology Podcast!

00:00:45: My name is Severin Matussek And todays guest is Bernhard Günther.

00:00:49: Bernhard is the artistic director of Wien Moderne One of the biggest festivals for contemporary arts music in the world The biggest one in Austria.

00:00:58: Welcome to the podcast.

00:00:59: Thanks for having me.

00:01:00: So Wien moderne just wrapped up.

00:01:02: It was edition number thirty-eight.

00:01:04: It went over five weeks all over Vienna.

00:01:07: How was it?

00:01:10: Super intense.

00:01:11: Wien-Modern is, since I know and learned to know in the early years when i come to Vienna to study... ...is a planned overdose on contemporary music which is great thing because never happens And we try make as much fun possible but there's lot of hard work so whole team is pretty exhausted.

00:01:29: We're just really like pulling together numbers Because were sending out our official report Tomorrow and yeah many things in the paperwork domain still to be done, but I think The most urgent thing that team needs now is like hot water And a thermal spring or something.

00:01:56: Definitely it was Yeah, so it feels cool.

00:02:00: We've been sailing through with a lot of flow and that was really nice.

00:02:04: Were there any personal highlights?

00:02:06: That's always a tricky question because the whole point... ...of five-week long festival for me is not my personal favorite show.

00:02:16: So if I put a program together where i like one hundred percent very much I've done something wrong, because it's really about scope.

00:02:33: It's really opening up and on a meta level.

00:02:38: that is what i like most.

00:02:39: so my musical favourites or production ways are in terms of how the show has worked In specific space.

00:02:52: So...I have favourites at lots levels not only aesthetic Yeah, but there were lots of favorites.

00:02:59: So do you want them?

00:03:01: Please

00:03:03: give us some color... How can we imagine the program even and what does it mean to put together a contemporary arts music festival in twenty-twenty five?

00:03:12: I would say so.

00:03:13: Nobody knows exactly what contemporary art's music is!

00:03:16: That's good thing.

00:03:17: or let's say all those people who said earlier decades that they knew exactly what it was When they hear something, then they knew exactly that this was not contemporary music.

00:03:33: That's a lot more often when I sort of grew into the art field.

00:03:40: so in the nineteen eighties and ninety nineties at a lot of Contemporary Arts Music festivals it is like after a show somebody would just go to the courtyard and yell.

00:03:52: that was fantastic!

00:03:54: Or, that was impossible!

00:03:56: That's contemporary arts music festival feeling for me a long time.

00:04:01: And this is something which has sort of retired and I really like it because if you have all these do's & don'ts... A couple opinion leaders who always define what's forbidden or cool pool as pretty narrow.

00:04:18: Now i'm happy.

00:04:22: the festival program Confusing and that's a bit on purpose.

00:04:27: I have to say if you go one evening You find something yet?

00:04:31: Really love it.

00:04:32: then two days later, you'll find some things but there has nothing to do with them also in terms of like Formats and spaces.

00:04:41: so we have super super classical spaces Like here We're sitting And you can guess It's an older building because it Has this nineteen fifties Goblin.

00:04:51: So this is Wiener Konzelterhausen.

00:04:53: This sort of the...

00:04:55: Very historic venue, mostly

00:04:56: for classical music.

00:04:59: And that has been super closely connected to the festival since day one.

00:05:04: The other super-classical venue is Musikverein Of course even older and from there on we go underground places, clubs museums churches whatever.

00:05:21: so but about back to the favorite question.

00:05:23: yeah favorites.

00:05:24: yes.

00:05:25: we opened here with a super classical format which is not so typical because when you like open and then people don't sit for instance in a classical concert if it walk around.

00:05:36: So We Open Super Classical With seated audience within orchestra.

00:05:44: we had a black conductor and only black composers for the first time in the festival history.

00:05:49: And I thought it was an absolutely fantastic concert, and the audience really loved it... ...and the press really loved them!

00:05:57: Also for all of that fact they felt like this is their very first time.

00:06:04: Many people shared this feeling about how it was about time.

00:06:09: The whole idea about the festival was reflecting upon how the city has been developing in these thirty-seven years since it started.

00:06:22: And that's really an enormous development, Vienna gained a thirty seven percent of... population in those thirty seven years.

00:06:34: I mean maybe before we got into that, yeah i would love to know a little bit more.

00:06:38: you mentioned you started the nineteen eighties or nineties to be interested in this sort of music and back then The reaction of the audience was quite polarizing.

00:06:48: Either people loved it or people hated, and there were more rules-based canons... As far as I understand going even back a hundred years to Arnold Schoenberg's music, that is what had already been represented in classical music.

00:07:05: Maybe it wasn't even considered classical music at the time.

00:07:09: So my understanding of that type of contemporary arts music is, It was always about breaking the rules in some way or expanding the horizon on what music can be.

00:07:20: Can you tell us a little bit more about maybe the historical aspect how it developed from Schoenberg to

00:07:25: the

00:07:25: eighties?

00:07:27: I mean... In the beginning we had all Schoenenberg string quartets.

00:07:33: Fun fact was supposed to happen last year to celebrate the hundred fiftieth birthday of Schoenberg, but The cellist used an e-scooter.

00:07:43: Oh Broke his arm.

00:07:46: So we had we have to shift a full four concerts.

00:07:49: it's two this year.

00:07:51: and it happened.

00:07:51: It was super sold out in a big success And everybody loved it.

00:07:56: But it's true that schoenburg is in the Wien-Modern context is ancient music.

00:08:03: It's really old and it has this notion of what you said like, its sort of broke a lot rules but... In very contradictory way.

00:08:11: so Schoenberg was super rule based.

00:08:17: I mean he invented this so called twelve tone music system.

00:08:21: So everything had right way or wrong ways And also interestingly He didn't see it as breaking with the tradition, he saw this only logical way to continue traditions.

00:08:37: So for him music history started with Bach and then Beethoven... ...and then Brahms and then Mahler and then Schoenberg And his method of composing was twelve tones.

00:08:51: so that's completely logical.

00:08:56: He even had a problem with another guy's music, Joseph Matthias Hauer who also invented the different method of using twelve tones.

00:09:03: So he was super like superstrict and that is of course somehow The origin of this cliché that contemporary music is not accessible.

00:09:14: because they have this problem With these scandal concerts.

00:09:16: I mean we're talking about Vienna here.

00:09:18: This was Vienna in nineteen thirteen.

00:09:20: at Musikverein people started to hit each other in the face, because they had different opinions about music.

00:09:30: So that was this so-called Watschen Konzert?

00:09:33: What's a Watschenskonzert in

00:09:34: English?!

00:09:34: I have no idea!

00:09:36: A Slap In

00:09:37: The Face concert...

00:09:39: But

00:09:39: the famous Vinny Slap And The Face Concert in nineteen thirteen.

00:09:44: You see like the audience is splitting and in different ways one group says yeah this is cool, it's so edgy.

00:09:53: It's new and different... Yeah we like it!

00:09:57: And the others hated because they were too edgy to be different.

00:10:02: So since then contemporary music has always been on a narrow difficult path.

00:10:15: but that was what I meant.

00:10:17: there are these historically logical thing that there can only be one truth.

00:10:22: That's sort of done, yeah?

00:10:25: So... There are many people who write in this edgy and different way but at the same time they're five hundred ways to make music or composing.

00:10:40: so it comes from let us do something other than mainstream And that still counts for almost everything in this field.

00:10:53: But what's the mainstream today?

00:10:55: Nobody knows, and then it is so broad... ...that you can really find a lot of ways to get happy on their fields.

00:11:06: This something I really like.

00:11:08: So i think there was basically themed around great learning based on the narrative that since its foundation in nineteen eighty-eight, Vienna's population has grown for about thirty seven percent.

00:11:25: And that means the population of Vienna as a city where the festival is hosted have become a lot more diverse.

00:11:31: and I think there are other things happening.

00:11:34: if you look at the last decades technological developments Internet social media we've seen something completely haven't grasped yet of like the huge segmentation and polarization in some way, but that has happened.

00:11:50: society.

00:11:50: As you say nobody knows what's mainstream anymore because also mainstream channels of distribution don't exist any more.

00:11:57: so In this reality What was your approach to where I think we meet?

00:12:03: The huge diversity and segmentation of a population culture as a whole plus the huge variety of contemporary music that you mentioned before.

00:12:14: So how do you match those two?

00:12:17: You can say maybe data sets, y'know... How to imagine and create something with it!

00:12:21: They're not data set yet but we are working on them.

00:12:24: We were on a case.

00:12:27: so yeah first is starting from gut feeling art festivals or cultural festivals in general.

00:12:38: I could be slower than the general population in terms of diversity.

00:12:43: We have a couple of topics that concern the general populations, but because we are in the arts world and music world maybe this kind... Oh!

00:12:55: Schoenberg has said it had to be like this then or so?

00:12:58: So we have these narrow traditions which tend not see if anything has do with real-world if doesn't sound right.

00:13:07: So this is something that we particularly tried to open up with this year's edition.

00:13:12: For instance, We had these things that were subtitled Blues Opera... That was something where I found it very interesting!

00:13:20: I mean, in Moderna there are a lot of commissions.

00:13:24: so each and every year you have about Seventy or more world premieres, or Austrian premieres and new productions.

00:13:33: So when you commission a piece obviously You don't know how it will sound in the end.

00:13:37: so we commissioned a piece.

00:13:38: We co-commissioned to peace with the festival in Hamburg.

00:13:42: The musicians behind It were mainly Tashan Sari And Akuanaro.

00:13:48: So Tashán is a composer but also drummer I think Also pianist Who has a very broad spectrum of genres and he is doing something that he calls post-genre music.

00:14:02: So when you do something with Taishan, You never know where it will end up in the end because He can do edgy Experimental stuff for contemporary Music Festival like Donau Eschingen or he Can Do Something That Fits In A Jazz Club.

00:14:16: I mean he was just before he arrived in Vienna.

00:14:19: he Was playing For i think a row Of five concerts at The Village Vanguard in New York City.

00:14:24: so If you commission him with a new word, what will it be?

00:14:29: Nobody knows.

00:14:30: But we knew something about the backstory of this... There's a researcher.

00:14:37: Tricia Rose had written a book some twenty years ago which was called Longing to Tell Black Women Talk About Sexuality.

00:14:47: for the rest of their subtitle.

00:14:50: Basically that is big research project.

00:14:55: It's an oral history project where she has partners like talking into the microphone, their life story basically.

00:15:02: And so behind that is a shift in the population... ...in the USA that number of black women in prison have gone up since the nineteen eighties and the next fifteen years or so by eight hundred percent.

00:15:25: So this is a quite shocking figure.

00:15:26: and this the thing that we knew about This production when we commissioned it And okay me being artistic director.

00:15:34: I said, okay?

00:15:35: But i will know how It sounds When We get there but i Know What The show Is About and i think this is an important story to tell with the audience in Vienna.

00:15:48: So, interesting experiment because I mean we had a... We showed it once in Halle-i in the Museums Court here.

00:15:56: I think... I don't remember was about eight hundred people maybe who saw this show and many people liked it And some decidedly did not Because It didn't sound like something that's supposed to be programmed at a contemporary music festival with the tradition of Viennepodern.

00:16:14: Now okay This is an interesting point to work on.

00:16:18: If you refuse to say, oh wow this is a shocking story just because the aesthetic surface is out of what we expected then that could be an indicator.

00:16:32: maybe your aesthetic spectrum is partially getting in the way.

00:16:39: So this was a super interesting experience for me.

00:16:43: Because I mean, now it's so shocked when i heard that number and the whole story about the suppression of black women And had fantastic opportunity to have great team of mainly Black Women tell their stories personally on stage in Vienna.

00:17:01: Then part of audience says... That was so in the face, we didn't need this message.

00:17:09: We wanted something that sounds more like contemporary music than I think.

00:17:12: okay interesting... Interesting!

00:17:14: I mean a Contemporary Music Festival will always create friction because you don't know what you'll get at the end.

00:17:22: and So it's..I Think This is Something that might be interesting to to look at in a very precise way.

00:17:31: I mean, also i did a lot of talking with people in the audience To see how they felt and but it's yeah That's a bit of a dangerous thing With music that you always think ah this is my favorite sound And if It's something else then ooh!

00:17:45: I don't like it.

00:17:47: So...I

00:17:47: think to some extent what You described Is probably the challenge that every artist or every festival with an audience faces, which is do you decide to please your existing audience and just reproduce what we've done before in order to make existing audiences happy?

00:18:03: Or do you move beyond that?

00:18:04: because as a artistic director of artists it's important for you.

00:18:10: I mean now we're talking about the core of the Festival.

00:18:18: Wien-Modern was founded because everything running on autopilot.

00:18:23: Not everything, but there were places where innovation took place.

00:18:28: I mean we're talking about the late eighties that just went into that moment of Vienna electronic scene and so one going wild.

00:18:39: But in everything that remotely looked like classical music, like orchestra chamber music and so on... That was pretty much backwards.

00:18:52: Vienna had this image of being so nostalgic and so backward And so touristy also.

00:19:00: Yeah, they want to listen to Mozart played in historical costumes.

00:19:04: I'm just exaggerating a little but there is this cliche and so we must found it To bring these edgy stuff out.

00:19:12: that and So if we don't create friction We've done.

00:19:19: It's important

00:19:31: when it comes to These layers that have discussed before layers like diversity of background, diversity education and diversity knowledge, diversity taste segmentation all over culture.

00:19:46: With the piece that you just mentioned do you think you achieved something as in bringing completely new audiences to be modern through pieces like that.

00:19:55: That would probably never have paid attention, otherwise a specific piece you commission maybe reaches people in corners and it wouldn't reach them because is relevant for them.

00:20:06: Is this something your intended?

00:20:08: I

00:20:09: mean in our modesty its difficult thing to intend Because i think on the long run we must create very patiently an atmosphere where people trust that something that might be relevant to them could happen at a festival.

00:20:28: So you can't say, okay now we've done one woman composer and then expect the gender balance is all right?

00:20:39: That's ridiculous!

00:20:40: I mean it's really... It's an effort, it's a constant thing and also to be believable, that you create this kind of trust.

00:20:53: That people say okay this could be interesting.

00:20:55: I mean our channels of communication are not so different from what they used to be in the last years.

00:21:02: So it's really something that needs time.

00:21:05: And um...so thats first thing is being modest about expectations.

00:21:10: A second is I can only give you an educated guess at the moment when it comes to, has the audience been more diverse?

00:21:20: Or have we being able reach out new people.

00:21:23: In part also goes along with different venues.

00:21:28: so we did concerted Otterkringer Brauerei and i think that was probably first time that Wien Moderne made something there.

00:21:35: So a lot of festival regulars went.

00:21:38: otterklingern brauerei

00:21:40: That's a former brewery.

00:21:42: Yeah, it is the former breweries which are parties and clubs or rock concerts.

00:21:48: but I don't think every classical music listener in Vienna has heard about them.

00:21:58: so... It probably like there is very small overlap of people who go to other Kringerbrauere.

00:22:05: So, I mean we create a bit of overlap with when you use that as venue because then some festival audiences go there and maybe people who say oh it's at Alterkringer Brawri.

00:22:20: Then is pretty good chance for me to be more accessible than if they were in concert also.

00:22:29: so yeah but this something like with a lot of modesty, I think that's super important.

00:22:38: Just because you have different venue doesn't mean oh now we've got the new audience and also there are no figures!

00:22:46: You mentioned the word data

00:22:48: before... Yeah let me go back

00:22:49: to the data question.

00:22:51: We started with ridiculously poor data when i started.

00:22:57: in two thousand fourteen they were looking for an artistic director.

00:23:02: They gave us a super, super limited data set which basically was attendance over the years and number of concerts over the year.

00:23:11: And I'm not even sure revenue is in there or whatever.

00:23:14: so it's like if you try to steer a plane with just two instruments would turn out properly working?

00:23:23: It's crazy!

00:23:24: This something that we're trying change.

00:23:26: also There was a call for projects from Wirtschaftsagentur and they said if festivals in Vienna have something that they could wish for, uh...from the tech company.

00:23:44: So that's easy because

00:23:45: it's data.

00:23:48: to stay on this image of steering your plane with just like two instruments?

00:23:54: on the dashboard, that's ridiculous.

00:23:56: So yes we want numbers to have a better knowledge about where we are.

00:24:02: so I mean... We had some knowledge of how the population is developing but To know more about the festival About the program and audience That was always big thing.

00:24:16: As far as i know there were one scientific study in terms of audience research which was done in two thousand fourteen, two thousand fifteen.

00:24:26: So that's I mean over ten years ago.

00:24:29: it is a big project with funding from the universities and so on... It would be good to do that each year but we simply don't have resources or funding.

00:24:43: now were trying look at program first and then maybe in a later stage at how the audience is developing, How The Audience Is Composed actually.

00:24:54: We just don't know... I mean we're doing ticket sales through Wiener Konzelthaus but yeah..we probably have zip codes But that might be it!

00:25:08: What if you flipped around to answer your question what would cultural festivals want from a tech company?

00:25:14: You say data.

00:25:15: What kind of data, if you could wish for any type of data?

00:25:19: Would fundamentally really change the game as a curator.

00:25:24: If we know everything about your audience what would it be that will make changes in how to set up the festival next year For

00:25:33: instance different age groups.

00:25:36: To see our program is distributed twenty-somethings, thirty somethings, forty some things, fifty some things.

00:25:46: We have ninety some thing in the festival because when a composer gets ninety and is famous guy then we have tendency of trying it.

00:25:55: but do you ever know that there are twenty somthing's on the program?

00:25:58: So this is something as I said i haven't got feeling for them.

00:26:02: yeah And if they run an autopilot artist would get older each year by one year and so then we would celebrate only eighties and nineties birthdays.

00:26:20: One day, this is something that happens automatically people grow older.

00:26:24: So you have to look out actively That a program stays about as young as it was ten years ago.

00:26:35: This has has to be done, or even younger.

00:26:38: If ten years ago they were too nostalgic and had too many famous older composers in the program.

00:26:48: so this is something that needs really active steering.

00:26:54: but it would be super good to know about this... I mean how many artists do we have who have a migration background?

00:27:02: Yeah, or how many... How is the exact gender balance among our artists?

00:27:07: We know that non-binary percentage in the population is growing rapidly.

00:27:14: If you look at this statistics it's still like all of them not so many percent In the official data sets of government.

00:27:21: but we have Without having research properly without even asking people for How do they perceive themselves, how do they define themself?

00:27:33: We have at least nine non-binary artists in the festival.

00:27:38: Well this is something that's remarkable I think because it's for a couple of years ago.

00:27:45: we didn't even look and had no awareness.

00:27:48: oh!

00:27:48: This is existing.

00:27:50: so there are some big dynamics In many criteria.

00:27:56: Also like music is especially prone to higher education, because I said you have to learn the bloody violin for some twenty years until your perfect.

00:28:09: So in order a music festival not end up as an elite thing... I mean that's the image.

00:28:18: anyway You have to do something.

00:28:23: For instance, you can do calls and corporations with schools or you could do cooperations at music universities.

00:28:33: Music university is also pretty prone.

00:28:36: being in this elite thing I think higher education is probably one of the more classist forms.

00:28:46: And so, yeah.

00:28:49: To have an awareness for all these things is something that's part of the learning curve.

00:28:54: but I think it's important to do now because otherwise if we don't start thinking about this then probably in ten maybe fifteen years rest of population will ask themselves what exactly are they doing there?

00:29:11: These kinds of cultural festivals.

00:29:14: So, you know I have this sense of urgency that's... ...I have a lot respect for these dynamics and the development of their populations.

00:29:26: And i think it is about time to check them out!

00:29:30: You mentioned tech companies & data.

00:29:35: The Tech Companies won't probably give you the data but they can give you tool And then you have to see how do get the data.

00:29:42: It's a tricky thing, I can tell because we're working on this...

00:29:47: What i find interesting about what you described and that data versus human curation part is like.

00:29:55: We are now in time and age numerous other organizations with artists about this where Artificial intelligence comes into the game and I also you know, I think to make it even a broader picture.

00:30:06: I see there's some connection maybe today logic based music of Schoenberg And then some of these algorithm driven Machines that we deal with today?

00:30:15: I think were in a time at age Where a lot of people ask themselves when they see what AI can do in terms of data processing an understanding What makes us truly uniquely human if AI can do certain parts of that, which is mostly processing data in a way.

00:30:31: So more and more I think when yeah maybe like few years ago everyone was in this mindset of we need more data to understand people.

00:30:40: Yes!

00:30:40: Of course More Data will give us better understanding however you might get it.

00:30:45: But I think at the same time, there is also a shift in mindset now where we're like yes.

00:30:50: We need to data but also we need this specifically unique human taste that maybe A singular person or team with expertise in field brings In.

00:31:01: and i would even argue if you go into production of music for example There's countless examples of artists For example Drake who was very popular on Spotify whose last album was clearly produced to work on Spotify as a sort of background music, But it didn't interest any critic or anyone, and no one says this is their favorite album.

00:31:23: It just works!

00:31:24: Whereas I think you could argue that a lot of the breakthrough things in the history of music are often the things that come by surprise... ...that aren't calculated on data anything.

00:31:36: So i think there's kind like little bit about how l look at it where yeah specific unique human touch will become more important as well in cooperation maybe with certain datasets.

00:31:50: Absolutely, we have really decided not to go into the AI direction when it comes to collecting data that has to do with discrimination because AI is taking a bias and making it bigger And may be this will change one day.

00:32:13: but in terms of discrimination I mean there's kind AI and sexism is really a rather disgusting story as far I know it.

00:32:27: Is this something that we want to touch when you understand how diversity works, how these cultural dynamics work?

00:32:36: How innovation works?

00:32:37: Probably not!

00:32:39: We have decided against using AI when it comes to this tool for data analysis.

00:32:46: It's rather tempting because AI people will tell you that they can

00:32:51: analyze

00:32:51: for you any unstructured data, They just let their bot run over social media and then everything about the world.

00:32:59: And I very much doubted that.

00:33:01: This does not mean that AI doesn't play a role.

00:33:04: We had George Lewis in the festival,

00:33:06: and he

00:33:07: started to work with what is now called AI when it was still machine learning.

00:33:16: That's pretty amazing!

00:33:18: He programmed these tools that you could actually dialogue with him as a piano... can improvise with the human player, which is pretty amazing I think because it's a great thing.

00:33:30: So I don't say AI has nothing to be looked at certainly not.

00:33:35: but when it comes to learning about discrimination then It's...I Think it's good to be very doubtful that AI will give you The right kind of information.

00:33:49: Also i mean if I can say this here and podcast about technology.

00:33:58: I think there is a certain risk that AI will do what Steve Bannon called flood the zone with shit, my personal opinion?

00:34:08: Well

00:34:08: we see it already happening with AI.

00:34:10: slop on top right?

00:34:13: Don't overdose an AI and also

00:34:15: at least in a way structured now differently models are being designed for you.

00:34:31: But maybe let's jump to George Lewis because I think that there is an interesting connection.

00:34:35: First, i'm curious about George Louis as a composer and his use of AI And secondly in the decision to bring him on as co-curator In some parts of the program how this was made How you related it.

00:34:50: So give us a little.

00:34:52: george lewis introduction.

00:34:53: Sure!

00:34:53: It would be such pleasure for me To have him at the festival.

00:34:59: He has this wonderful way of sharing his thoughts, also about tough topics like I mean racism or post-colonialism.

00:35:11: That's something that is not easy to share with an audience and he has this absolutely wonderful way Of talking about it...that everybody says oh!

00:35:24: He's right.

00:35:25: And so I've learned so much from these talks with George over the last two or three years, probably.

00:35:34: For instance he has this wonderful comparison of... Imagine that the world is a house!

00:35:49: So now you notice it's beautiful houses and long history fantastic thing, but it has a couple of holes in the roof.

00:35:59: And those holes are problems that you should notice like horrible gender balance or a horrible balance in terms of post-colonialism and so on.

00:36:10: So now then We should be offering some kind of service like okay, I have a diversity problem.

00:36:19: Can you please help me fix it?

00:36:21: And this is something that he does in an wonderful way That you actually Did.

00:36:27: you actually get a kind of awareness off Of problems yet for the first part of your life.

00:36:35: You didn't even know they existed.

00:36:38: so and this is Something that i'm extremely grateful to george lewis that he stays on the topic.

00:36:48: He has written this wonderful text, Postcolonial Curating in Eight Difficult Steps.

00:36:53: I think it's published by Mann Magazine online.

00:36:57: so... That is something really brought into discussion very productive way and set things to motion at the same time.

00:37:11: Having said that, he's a wonderful composer.

00:37:13: He is a wonderful trombone player I think who refuses to play the trombon now but some people refer him as all this famous free jazz trombones player.

00:37:24: But of course...he has been member of AMM.

00:37:30: Is it AAM?

00:37:31: No.

00:37:32: Advancement of American music, I have to start... So we will probably leave these somewhere in the comments and right from them.

00:37:41: And he was like for a long time.

00:37:43: He is super youngest member of this revolutionary group Of black musicians In I think from the nineteen seventies on.

00:37:53: I might be wrong.

00:37:53: And so he has been extremely connected, he's written books like Composing Wild Black together with Harold Casidou and just to raise the level of visibility for something off a part in this arts world that had been overlooked very long time ago.

00:38:18: You know there is thing when Vienna Philharmonic is being asked why they do so few women composers, then it's always like yeah you know we look for quality.

00:38:31: Yeah

00:38:32: I mean...

00:38:32: We know that the usual argument and there are no good woman composers.

00:38:37: this just oh my god!

00:38:42: So get yourself an update.

00:38:45: And George Lewis giving us as an update And that is super helpful and instructive.

00:38:54: I think the reviews after this opening concert, he had co-curated together with the conductor Vimbe Casiboni was like... This was a fantastic concert!

00:39:04: So good pieces so touching and so on.

00:39:08: Yeah..this quality argument which i also heard at the Taishansari Aquanau Concert it's very dangerous because we get so used to what we think quality is, that... We completely lose a broader perspective.

00:39:28: And this something George Lewis as co-curator has really been helpful about and that was wonderful!

00:39:35: Then there the other element of George Lewis his work with machine learning AI.

00:39:40: I think when i checked out program I was particularly drawn into piece he performed called your network is unstable.

00:39:48: I listened to it, and was like wow!

00:39:49: It's intense.

00:39:51: but how would you describe the way a composer like George Lewis brings in emerging technology into his work?

00:40:02: This is something that we know from daily life.

00:40:06: so somewhere the wiffy isn't working or And this kind of daily experience of technology is something that he made audible in a way.

00:40:17: It's cool piece, but really when you're sitting...

00:40:22: You can't connect to the internet?

00:40:24: Yeah!

00:40:24: In no way.

00:40:25: or if it seems like something works and it's shaky.

00:40:30: He always establishes sound, groove even And this kind of feeling is interesting, and then how he connects that with the instability... ...of the world.

00:40:45: Of democracy just by using sounds and a little text.

00:40:51: He likes to say like he's working on depictions.

00:40:56: So music that depicts something.

00:41:00: And he says this is a long tradition in black music, especially the USA.

00:41:08: We're not so aware about that whole tradition of Europe because we are just not looking there but it's something very much brought into visibility at the festival This whole tradition like having a topic and then describing them practically through music.

00:41:28: I mean in Europe we had this tradition of program music but he applies not so much to a river or landscape, fairy tale and stupid story.

00:41:43: But how technology is interacting with Our lives.

00:41:50: Yeah, and then he writes an orchestra piece about that And I find the pretty cool

00:41:54: me too.

00:41:55: i mean this is exactly The topic of our podcast.

00:41:57: right how does technology interact with their lives?

00:42:00: That's why yeah there's.

00:42:01: why noticed it maybe as the other piece that I wanted to discuss Is the Laura bowler love music piece.

00:42:10: did you think was it commissioned or was it performed?

00:42:14: It was the Austrian premiere in the festival, but so.

00:42:18: The world premiere was in September twenty-five in France and Strasbourg at a musical festival.

00:42:26: And So that is a piece.

00:42:29: where?

00:42:31: I mean word.

00:42:31: the role of technology is a lot more obvious Because it's you have screen with video projection You have a lot amplification and so on, on stage.

00:42:45: And quite a few computers... So they're using digital technologies to bring the show together To put this whole work Together to compose it.

00:43:00: but that's The idea of the work is extremely human because It's called the sad album And it's all about the loss of a beloved person.

00:43:14: So that is something, if you want to... It's the other way around.

00:43:22: so You're not using an orchestra To tell story how technology interfering with world but your using technology in order put together on show That telling deeply human stories.

00:43:37: And yeah, Laura Bola has this.

00:43:39: She's not only composer but also performer.

00:43:41: she is on stage with the musicians.

00:43:44: They have been co-developing This The ensemble.

00:43:46: it called Love Music and they understand themselves Not so much as a classical ensemble But its collective.

00:43:52: So it's very much a contemporary music ensemble of the next generation, I would say.

00:43:57: And they won this ensemble award... Is that called Förderpreis?

00:44:02: What is it?

00:44:02: Encouragement Award?

00:44:03: Oh no!

00:44:04: Should know but I don't

00:44:05: know.

00:44:05: Portrait

00:44:07: Prize?

00:44:08: Of Siemens Musikstiftung which is one of the most important funding bodies in contemporary music each and every year take a couple of million of euros in order to realize new projects, support young artists and so on.

00:44:23: And that is something happened for the first time when they said like okay we have this young ensemble that we support... So it was actually co-produced.

00:44:36: if you wanted or supported this project It's interesting!

00:44:44: Funding bodies as a festival.

00:44:46: you send an application and then you get something or you don't get something.

00:44:50: but Doesn't happen too often to me that the funding body actually calls me.

00:44:56: Yeah We have something for you I really like yeah, yeah But this it was absolutely perfect because fit into this idea of the great learning in a very interesting way because it's... In contemporary music, I mean you mentioned Schoenberg before.

00:45:16: He has written these... What was it?

00:45:18: Nineteen-tens, nineteen early twenties This work called Pierrot-Lunaire And that was pretty much one of the early examples Of a music piece That needed what we today call an ensemble.

00:45:33: So before he had orchestra You have string quartet.

00:45:37: You had the occasional Mendelssohn octet with eight players, but all of a sudden this... The early days of contemporary music brought this ensemble thing.

00:45:48: And now what is an ensemble?

00:45:50: It's super interesting!

00:45:54: In Vienna we have the situation that we have fantastic contemporary music ensembles really world-famous stuff.

00:46:00: We've Klangforum, Wien.

00:46:02: They're little bit like national team of contemporary music in a way that they're touring the whole planet.

00:46:08: They have just done a lot shows in New York City and so on, but you also have Face which is almost at the same level.

00:46:15: I would say You Have Studio Dan Which comes more from Jazz & Improv With The Background A Little Bit in and around Graz, but now very much a Viennese ensemble.

00:46:29: You have you have Black Page Orchestra which I always call like the punk band of contemporary music.

00:46:36: ensembles where So you have a lot of talent in Vienna,

00:46:42: potentially ensembles.

00:46:42: There's the great

00:46:44: deal of like Viennese musicians that he will find there and... And a lot them is playing in ensembls.

00:46:50: That really cool situation for the Festival Oscar.

00:46:52: because this is really I mean i know couple big cities In Europe or elsewhere where they had a couple of ensemble.

00:47:01: But think these situations in vienna are super high class.

00:47:05: Thats really deluxe to have A couple ensemble which are super ambitious, super inventive.

00:47:14: Pull together amazing shows.

00:47:16: so that's really great.

00:47:18: and but what is an ensemble?

00:47:20: So if you compare Klangvorm Wien somebody said it's on the level of Vienna Philharmonic.

00:47:28: It's not only in this kind of attitude Not a bad way.

00:47:35: I mean i love the Vienna Philharmonyk.

00:47:37: I was saying things before about them.

00:47:39: But we've been working with And they are of course a world-class orchestra, the Clangform Venus World Class Ensemble.

00:47:47: Very much on that level for me but very much orchestra orientated there.

00:47:53: other ensembles which were very much band oriented like Blackpitch Orchestra is very much.

00:48:01: They have this also, there's this rough punk attitude Also in their choice of repertoire and the choice of composers that they are working with And so on.

00:48:09: An orchestra had this notion Of we can play everything But they can't because they're definitely not doing punk rock.

00:48:19: Yeah Now Rock Band probably doesn't want to tell people that they can do everything, because they don't want to do this orchestra repertoire.

00:48:28: They want to pack stuff!

00:48:30: And so the profile of ensembles is quite a bit also getting more diverse which is an interesting situation.

00:48:40: So we have these kinds of We Can Do Everything ensemble That tend be little bit on classical and orchestral side plus electronics lots of technology happening there.

00:48:52: But we have these smaller ensembles that say, okay... We can't compare with the big national ensemble anyway.

00:48:59: So what's our profit?

00:49:01: That is an interesting situation and there are a lot of innovation happening in Vienna.

00:49:05: Is it part of your appeal to festivals like Wien Moderne where you bring together these local ensemble and their amazing high quality of them With composers' compositions and then the audience comes, sees what happens when they come together.

00:49:20: I've written a text all about this which says like... The core of curating is bringing people together.

00:49:26: For me, it's not like... I mean, curating.

00:49:28: some people think a curator should know about the art and so on?

00:49:32: Yeah!

00:49:32: It obviously isn't completely wrong but i think that most important thing really is to bring people together And its' not only these local ensembles groups, orchestras individual musicians composers performers other artists, but also international ones of course.

00:49:51: I mean we had an International Contemporary Ensemble from New York City who had Yard from Seoul in Korea and so on... We can't afford many international ensembles.

00:50:04: But i think it's super important because when Vienna gets more diverse that means It's not shrinking down to like, oh we are so Viennese thing.

00:50:17: on the contrary.

00:50:18: I think in this kind of narrowing-down was very much the Vienna that i encountered in the nineteen eighties when i arrived here and The music world it was okay.

00:50:29: they're for instance american musicologists who write fantastic books about viennian musicians And then people in Vienna, they don't understand it.

00:50:39: They haven't been born here and so on.

00:50:41: this kind of super narrow-minded Viennese old school thing that is also sort of retired by now.

00:50:49: It's very much more like open and international.

00:50:52: That's how it feels to me.

00:50:56: I wanted to end the conversation with your approach to curating.

00:50:59: you partly already mentioned it which was bring together.

00:51:04: I'm curious also in the context of historical evolution, what are your thoughts on bringing people together at this time?

00:51:13: Is it different than forty years ago.

00:51:16: Why do we need to come together today's day and age when it comes to technological influence or people being behind the screens increased polarization of society?

00:51:26: Do you feel from a personal experience about curating Wien-Modern that bringing them into these formats does something to people.

00:51:35: I mean, we could talk for hours about this now it's dangerous but in one word i think its...it has changed enormously and that has to do with a lot of things and technology is certainly one of the bigger factors taken into account.

00:51:50: For me It's interesting see to exaggerate what brings people apart.

00:52:00: The so-called social media is... We all thought it would bring people together and connect them, but... Yeah.

00:52:14: Not much anymore maybe?

00:52:14: It's really

00:52:18: not me!

00:52:19: But many consider it as threatening societies and splitting up things that were better connected before And many, many reasons behind that.

00:52:38: Let's not go

00:52:38: too much into it but like...

00:52:41: So and I think what a contemporary music festival can do is ridiculous.

00:52:48: It so little you know?

00:52:51: But really in all modesty What can we do?

00:52:56: Okay We have..what was the actual number?

00:53:01: Thirty-four something thousand people attending the festival this year.

00:53:06: That's nothing.

00:53:06: I mean one post on Facebook Yeah, but i think what we can do is that?

00:53:14: We that we celebrate The culture that brings People together.

00:53:22: i mean i think it's a magic that people go to A place and listen to the same music at the same time.

00:53:33: That's great.

00:53:33: I mean, that is a cultural achievement and i think it will not keep alive if we don't do anything.

00:53:45: so this has to be reinvented every time.

00:53:50: but on the other hand its not only technology.

00:53:55: Technology can in fact create things which bring people together but also other things, other developments in society which I think where it's good to ask yourself yeah as i said will it bring people together or will it pull people apart?

00:54:19: Will it somehow dissolve what keeps the society together.

00:54:23: Or would probably strengthen a little?

00:54:27: and yes like all modesty contemporary music festival can do probably that much, but I would like to do what we can.

00:54:38: To celebrate this importance of listening to each other and taking care for one another... And of course having fun listening to interesting music!

00:54:59: That includes in the case having different opinions, of course.

00:55:04: Because I've always loved this even in the nineteen eighties when i went to this festival.

00:55:08: then afterwards we went to some cafe house In Vienna and Then We had Really have two discussions about This was I didn't like it at all!

00:55:19: I loved It.

00:55:21: So this is part Of The Game.

00:55:25: You get something that you spend an evening with a piece of music or With A group of Musicians And then Afterwards Yeah, you can relate to that and say why didn't I like it?

00:55:37: It was good because... And then i think its really inspiring.

00:55:41: Can be really inspiring even if is something thats so different from what your used to listen To irritate each other time-to-time.

00:55:55: Then talk about this together.

00:56:00: That's a good way to end the conversation.

00:56:02: Thank you so much!